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Thread: .380 recipe

  1. #11
    Dogs Like Him versifier's Avatar
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    I'd switch to a different powder measure - borrow one if necessary - to confirm the cause. That is the most likely cause, but you can't just guess, you have to know. More on that below.

    Weighing finished rounds won't necessarily help as there is a good amount of variation from case to case - you might get by doing it with a small case like a .380, but you'll have to weigh a bunch of uncharged cases to find out how much variation they have (in a recent batch of 100, commercial .30-06 cases can vary by as much as 10grains). If the differences are too small to see on a visual check, then the only way to tell is to charge a bunch in a block of, say, 50 and check-weigh them. With a funnel, you can put the good ones back in and seat bullets in them. It will take longer than usual, but it will confirm what you need to know. If you were finding problems in 2 out of 10, it should become apparent quickly.

    Eliminating other causes we can do with the extra information you provided. Crimping is not the issue, unless the rounds are telescoping as they are fed. That is exremely bad pressure-wise, but you would have noticed it and it wouldn't cause squibs. As carefully as you have been watching OAL, if there were insufficient neck tension, you would have noticed variation from round to round. I would store primers in a sealed ammo can with a dessicant pack to control humidity. Neither powder nor primers should be stored where the temperature will get really hot, but as you haven't had them for long enough to see any degredation, and they have all been going off, I would eliminate them as a cause, too. I'm assuming that you are not finding unburned powder or you would have mentioned it. With UNIQUE, you'd have seen it easily and have had to clean it all out of the workings.

    The thing about "Max load" is that it is a relative term and in practice is different for every firearm, even two chambered the same. I shoot a lot of older (and antique) military rifles - some of them display pressure signs with starting loads. With handguns, especially semi-autos, the flattening and cupping of primers so easily spotted with rifle cases is not always easily seen. In fact, it is easier to see underpowered loads in pistols when the cases fail to obturate and leave the fired primers raised. Often, when there is an overpressure, the barrel fails (KABOOM) and there are no apparent signs on the brass fired immediately before the failure. With a blowback operated pistol, you can sometimes notice the recoil being sharper, especially with smaller and lighter guns, and the report louder (which is more likely to be noticed by bystanders than the shooter). With UNIQUE, the incremental increases in .380ACP are only .2 gr, and then .1 to max. That is no big deal with a large rifle case holding 40+ grains, but with an itty bitty pistol case and charges approaching max, bridging and overcharge in the next case can cause a small handgun to become flying shrapnel. Fortunately, the Lee design prevents that, but does not prevent undercharging. (Similar comments have been made about the RCBS Little Dandy which uses small cavities also.) With larger adjustable measures, you only have to worry about bridging with IMR extruded powders, and flake or ball powders, even in tiny charges, meter very consistantly.

    I like UNIQUE a lot, and have been using it in a Walther .380 that my dad carries for twenty years. It is not a fun pistol to shoot, and the slide has carnivorous tendencies, but he likes it the once or twice a year he shoots it is no big deal. While he may shoot several hundred rounds of .45ACP at a range session, he seldom shoots more than two mags out of the Walther. UNIQUE is my "go-to" powder for most handgun rounds: .380, 9mm, .38spec, .357mag, 40S&W, .45ACP, and it works well for some cast loads in rifles. I buy it in 4lb jugs.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

  2. #12

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    I was afraid of case variation, I still have about 100 pieces left...same brand but who knows if it's the same lot...after I thought about it a little I decided that'd be an exercise in futility.

    I haven't seen any unburned powder, but I am getting some NASTY blowback (very little)...I guess it could be semi-burned powder but it doesn't have the look or consistency of powder flakes.

    I'm about to set up to load some more .40's tomorrow, these guys require a little more powder but I'm going to do as you suggested, drop a charge in 50 cases and inspect them in a loading block. I don't suspect that cavity (.57 cc) will give me any trouble but I might drop charges in some .380 with the correct disk and observe just to see what happens. I'm going to borrow a scale and see how accurate and consistent Mr. Lee's measure really is. I'm also going to see if there are any home grown solutions for it (lubricate with graphite or anything else).

    I probably won't reload the .380 again, I just needed enough to plink without breaking the bank...I'm trying to get accurate with it at the 10-15 yard range (I know that's probably a stretch). I might load up one more batch...it's just more fun shooting than the .40 but not being able to shoot off-hand rapid fire with it takes some of the fun out of it.

    Thanks for your help, the fully charged cartridges fire a little more smoothly than factory ammo with 3.7 gr. of Unique (if it is not 3.7 gr. I'll post back in a separate thread title Lee Auto Disk...should be good for information) and the 95 gr. cast bullet. I think if there is a next time I'm going to go with a jacketed or plated bullet as my Bersa got VERY dirty from 100 rounds.

    NOW...should I go ahead and shoot the 400+ rounds I have loaded carefully or just chalk this one up to experience in your opinion??? A guy actually offered to pay me 6.00/50 rounds despite the occasional undercharge (I fully disclosed my problems) but I don't need anything bad on my conscience.

    Thanks for the patience and input, I like this forum quite a bit...hopefully I'll be able to help someone out one day.

  3. #13
    Dogs Like Him versifier's Avatar
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    The only danger in shooting them that I can see is if there were no charge in a case, the primer has enough power to get the bullet into the barrel, but not out of it and headed downrange. Then when the next round is fired...... The light charges seem to have enough powder in them to launch the bullets downrange. If you can confirm that the problem is the powder measure, then they should be safe to shoot, but I would check the barrel after each light load just to be sure nothing is lodged in it. If you cannot confirm the cause, the safest thing to do is to pull them, but I myself would be doing a lot of experimenting with the measure and scales before I pulled 400+ rounds .

    Real squib loads are arrived at by incrementally dropping the charge until one does stay in the barrel, then raising the charge enough to be sure they all go downrange. I read about it being used in revolvers for indoor shooting and though I have not tried this myself, I have tried Jordan's method of primer powered wax bullets in .357mag revolvers, which seems to me a safer alternative. I don't think really light loads in a semi-auto is a good idea, but it is a personal opinion. It means single loading each round, and I think that kinda defeats the purpose of having a semi-auto in the first place.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

  4. #14

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    Thanks for all your advice...every time I pull the trigger and just get a "poof" I have been checking the barrel, I know the one time I don't check....

    I really didn't intend to make these things light, I try to make my hand loads "feel" as close to my premium ammo so in the event I need to use my CCW I will hopefully revert to "range habits" (I'm sure instinct will take over in that moment). I also don't think shooting really light loads in an auto is a good idea...that's why they make .22's right???

    Thanks again, will post back with any further info I find.

  5. #15

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    For anyone interested I borrowed a scale from a friend and weighed 50 charges from the Lee Auto Disk. I found the cavity that should give 3.7 gr. of Unique was giving me between 3.1 and 3.5 grains. I found out that

    1 - I needed to lubricate the moving parts that actuate the powder measure (the moving part of my expansion die) because it's movement was not as smooth as it could be

    2 - My reloading bench is not an actual reloading bench, it is the best thing I have at the moment...it is not level (way off actually) any direction we checked it

    3 - I also needed to lubricate the auto indexing parts of my Lee Pro...I never noticed that I was losing powder as the cases indexed because it was a little "jerky"

    4 - It was weird but I backed off my crimping die until it just barely knocked the flare out and readjusted my seating die and ran finished ammo through it...the rate of Poof rounds drastically reduced.

    So in other words most of it was me, my bench, and having equipment in need of maintenance.

  6. #16
    Dogs Like Him versifier's Avatar
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    The important thing is that you took the time to trace down the problem. Now you know and can avoid it in the future. Every vote against Hillary counts.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

  7. #17
    Gunload Grunt kg42's Avatar
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    New (and factory once used) brass can grab the expanding dies with a vengeance and jerk a lot at the release.
    Do you deburr them with a chamfer tool before the first use?

    kg

  8. #18

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    Thanks again for the help, walking me through troubleshooting my problems...

    kg, I haven't done any deburring, or even resizing yet, because I haven't seen any cases in need of it...I have some brass that's on it's fifth trip back home with me and I'm going to size/debur and compare with newer brass...I honestly can't tell if my brass needs deburring and the guys at the local shop say it's a waste of time unless you're competing...

  9. #19
    Gunload Grunt kg42's Avatar
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    Are you saying that you don't resize your brass? It must be a typo if I remember you procedure (the decapper is in the resizing die).

    Without resizing only the crimp would prevent the bullet from being kicked on top of the powder when it hits the feeding ramp (=surpressure) or jump out of the case with the recoil; and an excessive crimp would allow the cartridge to squeeze its neck in the barrel throat (with surpressure when the bullet gets out).
    Straight rimless cases headspace on their neck which must remain as straight as possible. A light taper crimp is the best option for them.

    Neck tension is important in most loads to allow proper combustion of the powder too; the exceptions being some cast loads in rifles and revolvers (some shooters argue that point and rely on crimp, which is only a limited option in autoloader).

    Chamfering/deburring your brass will remove residual edge from factory crimp, make bullet seating easier with less neck expansion and prevent lead shaving. But then you might not be affected by these problems to start with....
    Last edited by kg42; 07-02-2007 at 07:33 PM.

  10. #20

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    That is a typo...I meant I don't trim the cases...not resize...it's been a long couple of weeks.

    I haven't seen any of those problems yet (lead shaving anyway...if it's happening I can't see it). I got a batch of DIIIRRRRTTTTYYYYY bullets online and the residue you speak of is very obvious (I just inspected a few before tossin em in the tumbler). I'm going to investigate the chamfering/deburring hardware, I've seen plenty of Lee products but haven't had the time or money to investigate it yet, I'll probably go ahead and get a case trimmer while I'm at it.

    How long does it take to get all the reloading stuff you need??? I don't think it'll ever end, my wish list at MidwayUsa keeps getting longer and longer haha.

    After I rescue my Bushmaster AR 15 from layaway I'm going to venture into the wild world of reloading rifle rounds, looks like I'm gonna have to slow way down for that...I'm not sure if I trust my Lee Pro 1000 with those but I'm investigating that right now. There's a RCBS press at the gun shop (single stage press only) used for 65.00, I'm thinking about scooping it up for rifle and decapping/sizing.

    Anyways, thanks for the info and sorry for the confusion.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check        

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