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Thread: Oh no...... fillers again...

  1. #1
    Gunload Grunt kg42's Avatar
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    Default Oh no...... fillers again...

    Before coming back home yesterday, I made a stop at the grocery store to have a look at the gun mags. They've been pretty low in number in the last two month and they were down to two, one being Guns and Ammo, May 2007.

    This issue has a little piece on reduced loads in rifles by John Haviland.
    He talks about jacketed bullets;
    he uses light ones;
    he says to use a filler, like Pufflon(?).
    I'm not sure he means pufflonlike, or filler in general; or of how much shooting he has done (He gives only a couple of loads as "examples").

    Any thoughts; experience...?

    I mostly shoot cast bullets but I have to reckon that some hard cast bullets might have as much drag as a short jacketed one... and the only ones I got stuck in my push-through sizing dies were linotype cast, not soft core JHP's...

    So, is the golden rule about not using fillers with jacketed bullet..... an exaggeration (Not that their use with casts is already that much of a recommendation...)?

    kg

    (For the beginners among us, fillers are blamed for delaying the pressure wave from reaching the bullet, therefore creating a dangerous peak of pressure rather than a progressive "push". This would be aggravated by the stronger drag of a jacketed bullet.)
    Last edited by kg42; 05-08-2007 at 08:52 PM.

  2. #2
    Dogs Like Him versifier's Avatar
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    Default

    Wait a month and see if they run his obit....
    I use cast for reduced rifle loads anyway. If I want a high velocity, longer distance capable hunting load, I use a jacketed boattail bullet. I try to avoid using loads that fill the case less than halfway, but I will test boolits from most new moulds with one or more pistol powders. I won't use fillers in them, though. If I found one that was exceptionally accurate, I might consider it, but so far I have found better accuracy and higher velocity with slower powders.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

  3. #3
    Great Master Bullshop Junior's Avatar
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    Well you guys are going to think I am crazy, But I use pop corn. Not the pop corn you eat when you watch T.V., but the hateful kind that comes when you order something. for my 30/06 I use 12.0gn of IMR-4756 with the filler. just brake off s piece a little bigger then the the mouth then the case. then squash it down and stuff it in. shoots very good. The bullet I am using is the lyman luvern 152gn rngc, which you can get from the bullshop. I use 10.0gn in the 35 remington, with any cast 150-175 bullet, and the pop corn. I also use 10 in the 30/30 with a 150/180 gn bullet. I get all my bullets from the bull shop. I use to load for a 12 Ga and to load a light practice load, I would cut the hull in half and seat a wad up side down. for a little more power I would ad the pop corn, and the primer would just melt it. it works fine and dose not seem to raise pressure.
    Daniel/BS Jr.

    (Reminds me of what I do to my brothers)

  4. #4
    Gunload Grunt kg42's Avatar
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    Daniel, are you talking about food stuff or packaging styrofoam (just to make sure ); and doesn't the powder "leak" around the bits of....stuff?

    If I understand you don't fill the empty space, but only use one piece of stuffing to keep the powder against the primer?
    Paco Kelly uses a wad of styrofoam meat package in straight cases for light loads, and I was wondering if the idea could be used someway in bottleneck cases...

    My concern is that chamber ringing might happen when the powder is compacted as a cylinder, far from the bullet, and its pressure wave hits it as a straight wall.
    The idea then is that ringing wouldn't happen if we left some extra space for the powder behind the wad, and the pressure against the bullet wasn't so sudden.
    You might be getting away with it because your load is fairly low.

    kg

  5. #5
    lovedogs
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    The using of fillers is a huge controversy with many heated opinions on both sides. Pufflon is a product you can buy and use as a filler. From what I've read it seems like good stuff but is very expensive.

    Many shooters have some problems with listening to the advice of experts. Some sort of rebellion against authority?? I figure those guys who study ballistics and obtain degrees in the field must know more than I THINK I KNOW. If I have a serious question I call one up and talk specifics with them. So far I've found them, in most cases, to be helpful and very savvy. I've called several ballisticians and asked about fillers. EVERY ONE has advised against any type of fillers with smokeless powders. Cream of Wheat will, over time, draw the solvents out of the powder and change it's burning rate, making it "hotter" than it should be. Other kinds of fillers have been linked to ringing barrels and chambers in enough instances I won't use them. I have friends who have learned the hard way that this advice is valid. You may get away with using fillers for years, and you may never have a problem. But if you do, and you survive it, you'll learn a very hard lesson. A friend of mine, a very experienced reloader, blew up a Marlin .45-70 so badly you wouldn't believe what it looks like. Everything ahead of the bolt is gone, mangled metal and wood splinters. It took eight stitches in one of his thumbs and he has metal fragments imbedded in his face. Fortunately, he had his left hand back by the rear sandbag or he'd have lost it. He was using a small amount of 2400 with a cast bullet that should have been a low load. No one knows exactly what went wrong but we do know he lost a great gun and he will now use a powder that fills the case better and not use fillers. Maybe those experts really do know what they're talking about.

  6. #6
    GunLoad Trainee
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    I have an Encore in 7mmBR that I've always had a problem getting consistent accuracy from. After trying several different bullet and powder combinations I was still unhappy with the accuracy.
    I have seen ads for Pufflon in gun magazines for a while so I did some research on it and decided to try it.
    I got a small bottle (500 cc, $29.95 direct) It seems expensive but the 500 cc's is tightly packed. When you scrape it out of the bottle it expands a lot and a little goes a long way.
    Following the instructions carefully, I reduced the powder charge 10% (slightly more, actually). I filled the cases with Pufflon to the mouth and scraped offthe excess with a card. I then seated the bullets (Remington 140 gr PSP, the cheapest flat based bullets I could find).
    I fired a few rounds and nothing seemed out of the ordinary so I shot for group. I fired 10 5 round groups into 4" at 200 yards. This was a vast improvement over anything I had done before.
    Hoping to improve the groups even more I tried a different technique. After filling the cases with Pufflon and scraping off the excess I used a drill bit that just slip fits in the case mouth to compress the charge the length of the neck. Then I refilled the neck with Pufflon and seated the bullets. (the bullets only extend into the neck about 1/2 the length of the neck)
    I am now shooting into 3", and often into 2" at 200 yards. There is no indication of excess pressure. Velocity increased during the first 30 rounds of Pufflon use and then stabilized. I no longer clean the barrel with solvent. About every 100 rounds I clean jacket fouling with JB bore cleaner and Kroil, then swab the bore with Eezox.
    I have achieved this with a handgun with a 15" SSK barrel.
    I'm well aware of the danger inherent in using fillers. Until Pufflon I never considered using one. My experience has made me a believer.

  7. #7
    lovedogs
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    How many rounds do you think you can load with that 500cc container of Pufflon?

  8. #8
    GunLoad Trainee
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    lovedogs,
    The 500 cc measurement is in the tightly compressed, almost solid, state and when I scrape it out it fluffs up quite a bit. At this point my best guess is that it will last about 3 thousand rounds.
    The cost of the Pufflon is offset by the fact that I use about 2 grains less powder per round.
    Before using Pufflon the powder filled the case to the shoulder. With the reduced loads used with Pufflon the powder fills the case about 3/4 full. Of course, different cartridges and loads will use different amounts.
    I use Alliant RL7 powder. It's the only powder I've tried that doesn't produce a large muzzle flash. It's also the most accurate but the accuracy wasn't consistent until I started using Pufflon. Last week one 5 round group at 200 yards was a one hole group. The rest were less than 3", with a couple at 2". (10 groups total)

  9. #9
    lovedogs
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    Thanks for the info. Sounds like it'd last a long time at that rate.

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