Accurate 7 for hot .38 spl

[CENTURION1945]

Hello and best regards for every one, this is my first post, so I hope to get fine help. I work in security and regulations allowed me to carry a .357 Mag. gun (S&W M19 4" barrel), but NOT .357 ammo or hollow point bullets. The area I control is quite hazardous, so I need some powerfull ammo not store available here. Components I have are: Powders: AA7, Unique, W231 and Green Dot. Primers WSP standard. Bullets: Speer 158 gr. SWC. Cases goverment made, once fired, hand picked, inspected and weighted. I loaded 6.5 of Unique and 5.7 of W231 (old Hornady manuals) and only give 980 FPS; now I will tray 9.4 & 9.8 of AA7. I am looking some 1100 FPS. Somethink like a .38-44. Advise wanted. Thanks on advance.

[versifier]

Welcome to The Guide.

A good 158 SWC bullet kills a lot of deer. I understand you need them for the two-legged varmints, but we have killed a lot of deer and they can often outweigh humans. The flat nose of the SWC imparts a lot of energy to the target. With a .35cal you don't really need a lot of expansion as long as your bullet placement is correct. I prefer hunting with them over HP designs.

I carried a 4" S&W m19 for many years and I am still kicking myself for being forced to sell it when times got tough. AA#7 is a good powder to start with, and 2400 might be better. Unique is OK, not necessarily the best for hotter loads though if your revolver really likes it, still a good choice. I like it for target loads but prefer 2400 for hunting.

What you want to do is to go beyond normal .38spec data into the "+P" range and data is no longer as easy to find as it once was. When you are off the map, a chronograph is your best friend. Pressures can get too high using .357mag data in the smaller .38spec cases, so go slowly and carefully. Still I wouldn't want to go too far up into the .357 charge table because I do not know what the pressure levels are doing in the smaller case.

Most commercial 158gr +P ammo is in the 900-1000fps range, though there are a couple of exceptions that approach 1100, so your project appears doable. While I would not normally suggest it (and will not post charge weights due to the number of cheaply made .38's around), in my opinion the m19 will take it. But if I found a reasonably accurate load in the 900-1000fps range I'd be happy with it. Up here we say that a dead deer doesn't notice a hundred fps more or less if you put the bullet in his boiler room. My nephew the cop agrees that bullet placement is much more important than more velocity. (And he was talking specifically about two-legged varmints, not deer.)

Remember that for the better part of a century a .38spec with a 158 soft LRN at around 800fps or less was the standard police load here and accounted for a lot of dead bad guys. A more efficient bullet shape (SWC) with a bit more velocity ought to do the job even better. Those Speers are soft bullets though and I don't know if they will strip and fill your barrel's grooves with lead if pushed too hard. If you or someone you know is into casting, a harder alloy might work better. You'll just have to experiment to see what the bullet's limits are.

You might also consider loading a heavier SWC bullet, 170-180gr - what it loses in speed over the lighter bullet it makes up for in energy when it hits a live target. We use them on large black bear, though usually in a larger .357mag or .35rem cartridge.

Good luck and let us know what you come up with.

[Paul B]

"Remember that for the better part of a century a .38spec with a 158 soft LRN at around 800fps or less was the standard police load here and accounted for a lot of dead bad guys."

They also accounted for a lot of dead cops because of their lack of stopping power.

"A more efficient bullet shape (SWC) with a bit more velocity ought to do the job even better."

On that I agree 100 percent. Load data for the old 38/44 ammo isn't too easy to come by anymore. If one can chase down one of the older Lyman manuals, there usually was quite a bit of data for the 38/44. I play on another site that has restricted membership and they have a load that they call "The Load" for use in the .38 Spl. Now this load is not pressure tested and when mentioned on other sites has caused some controversy. It is a starting load with SR-4756 and a 158 gr. lead bullet. It was designed for use in 2" snubbies and according to the manual they took it from, velocity is 1023FPS. My friends on the site I mentioned have even used that load in the S&W Airweight although they did say recoil was a bit nasty in that gun. I have an Airweight and I won't try that load in that gun. I haven't tried that load in any of my .38's yet, mostly because I've just been busy with too many other projects. The data is from the Speer #8 manual and is on page 367. If you don't have or cannot find a copy, I can copy the data and send it to you by snail mail. Normally, I just post the numbers but there is some controversy surrounding the Speer #8. When they worked up the data, the cartridges were tested using the copper crusher method of getting pressure data. The copper pellets ae crush via a static method to a particular level, then a tarage table is made up for use with that bacth of copper pellets. Some of the data worked up in that manual has data worked up using the WRONG tarage table making that data not only unreliable but dangerous. I'm not sure the .38 data with SR-4756 was tested with copper pellets or lead pellets as I believe at least some handgun rounds are tested with lead pellets as are shotguns. All I will say about "The Load" is my friends, who live in another state and we visit at least once a year, sometime more are very competent reloaders and do not keep their heads in warm dark places. Seriously, one is an attorney and he caries that load in his CCW weapon. If that load delivers anywhere near 1000+ FPS with a 158 g. bullet from a snubbie, the it would put out as much as 50 to 60 FPS more from a 4" .38 Spl. or in your case the M19. The bullet my friend uses is the Lyman #358156, a 158 gr. gas checked semiwadcutter that I size to .359" for use in his gun.
I do have some of the much older Lyman manuals and in #41, they have a bunch of 38/44 data that I would not even try using .357 Mag. brass. The load they shower was exactly the same as the max load for the .357 Mag. Not a good idea. I'll hve to check and see if my E=mail address is in my profile. I usually do put it there. If not, I'll se if I can update it.
Paul B.

[Paul B]

I checked out my profile and apparently thee's no provision ffor placing my E-mail. Bummer. So, I'll post the data for the SR-4756 load. They show no max or min, just the one load which is 8.0 gr. of SR-4756 for the 1023 FPS from a 2" barrel.
Paul B.

[CENTURION1945]

Thanks for the guide lines. I know the Speer No. 8 Manual and looks that HS6 is a miracle powder that give marvelous velocity with no high pressure, some shooter even use it duplicating the Buffalo Bore FBI load with excellent results, but will be a miracle if I can get HS6 powder here....but just happened that I can get an Accurate manual and some help, so I take a risk and predate into low .357 Mag. territory and try some charges with AA7 and the Speer 158 SWC bullet. They give me this result: 9.4 gr for 980 FPS; 9.8 gr. for 1045 FPS and 10.2 gr. for 1120 FPS, this last one, my final choice, with 35 feets of extreme spread. Of course primers are quite flattened, just like standar 9 MM for comparison, but not cratered, recoil is some stiff but extraction was really easy. Certanly I belive this medicine is much superior than standard 158 gr. RN against 2 legged predators with or without drug help as is the norm today.