A Nagant question

[beekeeper]

Along the same lines as a previous poster I have a question on a Nagant load

I shoot both 91/30 and M44.
I am trying to get a load for longer distances than 100 yards.
At 100 yards I have all of them as tack drivers but beyond that they fall apart.
At 100 yards I am using 14 grains of Red dot
A CCI large rifle primer
No filler
and a lyman 314299 bullet cast of 50/50 W/W, pure lead.
bullets weigh in at 200 grain +/- 1/2 grain
Bores on all rifles slug at .314 or less 1 or 2 thousanths

I am looking to change powders for longer distances but am wondering which would be the best as I do not want to buy powders and then have them sit around and not be used, makes me want to load for something else which starts the horrific cycle over again, buy gun ,slug bore, OH well you get the idea.


beekeeper

[runfiverun]

that 14 gr load is about 45k pressure wise.
i would try going with 17 grs 2400 to start.
thats my 308 load, i use 18 in the 06,and 8x57, and 19 in my 7x57.
i use 17 in my argies with the 314299 my velocities are similar to yours only at a lower pressure.

for target loads where i want a bit more accuracy.
i use h-322 or one of the 4895's and a filler.
28.5 gr i-4895 with a tuft of dacron has proven to be very accurate with just about everything in 30 caliber.
it is my 308's top load and is accurate out to 300 yds with @5 moa drop at 200 and @ another 5 at 300.
it will clean a rack of bowling pins at 300 yds easily.
3031 is another good powder,as is 4064 in some situations, they usually do better with a filler also.

[versifier]

IMR 4895 and 3031 are my usual powders for hunting loads. I would also use a harder alloy like straight WW's as you are near or at the strength limit of your alloy, WW's are as soft as I go for rifle hunting bullets and for target bullets I usually go with 50/50, lino/pure. You do not say what you are sizing at, but it can be even more critical at longer ranges - do you have .315 & .316" sizers? Beyond 100yds, your load's SD becomes more important, too with the baseball-like trajectories at cast velocities. Are you using a good firm crimp? Even ignition helps with reduced loads, too. Obviously you've got a couple of good shooters, I'd want to see what they'll do at longer ranges, too.

[beekeeper]

Thanks for the information. Will give the 4895 a try on the next range trip.
I only use enough crimp with a lee factory crimp die to remove the slight bell from the lyman M die.
I size to .314 and lube with lithi/bee homemade lube in a lyman 45 sizer using aluminum gas checks.
I seat the bullets to just contact the rifling, and mark the bullet.
Brass is Privi Partisan
Have a .316 sizer on order and was thinking of using the larger bullet but was unsure.


beekeeper

[versifier]

Here's my $.02 worth:

Cast rifle loads need a good firm crimp for even and consistant ignition. Just enough to remove the bell won't do that IME. It is easy enough to prove or disprove with a simple test. Do you have or have access to a chrono? Shoot ten with your current crimp and ten with a heavy crimp and watch what happens to the numbers. SD should be much lower with the firm crimp (just like with revolver loads). The slower rifle powder won't hurt either, but I would be playing with the crimp first before changing anything else.

I think the larger sizer will make a big difference, too. The soft alloy you're using has been working for you with those light loads even though the bullets are undersized because it obturates more easily, but when you start pushing them harder, you will need both the larger diameter and harder alloy to keep your barrels from leading up as you increase your velocities/pressures and the rotational stress on the bullets exceed the strength of the softer mix and they begin to strip. The larger size balances the harder alloy's lessened ability to obturate, too, as well as filling up the grooves better.

I don't know about aluminum GC's. Never tried any, just brass and copper.

I cast rifle bullets basically to hunt with - generally the only target shooting I do is for testing and practice (which I guess is quite a lot considering the amount of testing I have to do times the number of moulds and rifles I have to play with), but my main focus is the best tradeoff between velocity, accuracy, and expansion. I only have one "strictly target" milsurp. Straight WW's is as soft as I go for hunting bullets because at .30cal, I want some expansion, but I still want as much velocity as I can get without leading up the barrel. I will go through as many different powders as I need to in search of best accuracy within what I consider optimal hunting velocity range (16-1800fps for 150-170gr, 15-1700fps with up to 200gr). Sometimes I am lucky enough to find a combination that lets me accurately push a bullet up to 2000fps, but it doesn't happen often. I have had a lot better luck with rifle powders in medium capacity cases than the faster pistol/shotgun ones that work so well for mild target loads. I keep these in stock: IMR 3031, 4895, 4064, Alliant 2400, RL 7 & 15, Varget, BL(C)-2, and H335. Most of them I also use for jacketed loads and only test them with cast if I have no luck with 4895 or 3031. If you get to experimenting, don't try reduced loads with regular ball powders. I can understand you wanting to keep the powder investment as low as possible, though, and if I had to limit myself to just one, it would be IMR4895

I shoot a 7.7Jap, too, which uses the larger diameter bullets that you are needing and for it I cast the Lee 185RNGC. Accuracy is really good, about 2MOA @ 100yds, but that rifle, the "strictly target" mentioned above, would be about my last choice to hunt with. I shoot it for its history (my dad brought it back from Okinawa). It has a .309 bore and .312 groove, so I am OK sizing at .314. I loaded for a .303Brit SMLE that printed shotgun patterns until I upped the sizer to .316 (5MOA) and then started really grouping at .318 (2MOA). Sounds like you're right in between with your Moisins.

One powder I have a lot of fun with is surp WC860, a .50BMG powder. Strictly for target loads, it can be surprisingly accurate in certain rifles. It is very inexpensive and almost always available. It is impossible to overload a medium capacity case with it, though like any ball powder it should never be compressed. I determine where the base of the bullet is in the case and fill to that level, weigh the charge. That becomes my START load and then REDUCE it in 1gr increments until the groups tighten up or it's clear the rifle doesn't like it. It's a fairly dirty powder, often leaving some unburned grains in the barrel, but some rifles absolutely love it. My Swiss K31 has two subMOA loads with it. But I also had a 7x57 m95 Mauser that shot a 5shot 50yd group with it of 38" (a personal record), so you just never know until you try it what will happen. An 8lb jug of it lasts nearly forever.

[runfiverun]

with cast i often experiment with pistol primers also.
even with powders such as 4895 and h-322,or aa-2230 i have been able to try pistol primers and fillers to good success.
i have also had success with rifle,or pistol primers medium rifle powders and no fillers in some cases.
like versifier said you never know till you try it.
i try to stay away from crimps where i can, and vary my neck tension by upping the diameter of the boolit or through sizing measures.
but a light crimp does sometimes help.