.204 Ruger Loads

[fishnbob]

Anybody out there got a good load for the .204 Ruger using factory jacketed bullets like the Hornady V-Max in 40 gr. Everything I've loaded is showing pressure, even at suggested starting loads. The 1st load was Hodgdon BL-C(2) with 29.0 grs. The manual showed 28.0 grs. starting & 30 grs. max. I even have primer cratering @ 28.0 grs. but no noticeable flattening of the primers. At 29.0 grs, the primers are flattened & cratered. I also tried IMR 4064 & IMR 4895 at mid way between starting & maximum and the cratering continues but doesn't seem to flatten too bad. I just shot the last factory cartridge I have & it is cratered but not flattened.
Anybody got any ideas what's going on? Brass is once fired, full lengthed resized and trimmed and primed with Winchester small rifle primers. Bullets are seated to 2.250" cartridge OAL as per manual & factories and some were seated out to 2.360" to allow for freebore, which I measured and backed off .030" as I do in everything I reload.

I appreciate any advice or experienced.

[versifier]

First of all I would figure out if there is an actual pressure issue.

Primers do not always tell the true story, even if they can usually be fairly good indicators. Mic the head diameters of brand new cases before and after firing. Measuring with a caliper (even a digital one that reads in four decimal places) doesn't cut it. Despite the readout, they are not accurate to better than .005". A mic will tell you to four places, and that's what you need to know. I would try it first with factory cases, then with handloads using virgin brass. A lot of production rifles will show signs on primers: flattening, cratering, and even pierced when firing factory ammo. Sometimes there is actually a pressure issue, sometimes there isn't. Unless you have a pizeo strain guage to epoxy on the outside of your chamber, a mic is the only way to really know.

If I was seeing what you are seeing, I would want to know. Something isn't right and that is the first thing to confirm before going any farther. The case will normally expand to obturate to the chamber at the web and above, but the head itself should not be expanding unless there is a real problem.

[fishnbob]

Thanks Versifier,
I will mic the heads and if I find no expansion, I will assume the cratering is ok?

[versifier]

While that would relieve a good amount of anxiety, I would still want to find out if there is another problem like possibly excessive headspace. That would be the next item on my list to eliminate as a possible cause. The way to find out is to see if the bolt will close on a NOGO guage, indicating that the chamber is cut a bit too deeply. It wouldn't be a big safety issue, but it would sure cut down on the life of your brass if steps weren't taken to deal with it. Pulling off a case head with the extractor and leaving the rest in the chamber and having to remove it by hand isn't a fun way to spend an afternoon.

Because it's also happening with factory loads, I do not believe it is a die adjustment issue (pushing shoulders back too far when resizing), which could also produce the same symptoms. Call it "self-induced extra headspace". If that were the problem, it would only show up with handloads and not with factory rounds.

Some rifles just don't like hotter loads, and that may be what's going on, but if it were me, I would want to be sure. If micing the case heads shows no pressure problems, my suggestion is to have a competent gunsmith in your area give the rifle a good inspection, check the headspace, measure your fired brass, etc. There is no substitute for having the rifle in hand when trying to solve that kind of puzzle.

[fishnbob]

Versifier, I bought the rifle used in a local gun shop. I don't know how much it has been fired. Is there a possibility of throat erosion contributing to a pinch of headspace? Maybe a preview of things to come? If the cartridge stop is eroded, would that compromise the NoGo gauge test? I guess a bore scope would tell, wouldn't it? Holy moley, I might as well buy a new rifle! Maybe I am overreacting?
I really appreciate your help on this!
BTW, I just got my Swedish Mauser back from the gunsmith with chamber erosion & it was headspaced. That rifle is over 100 yrs old and was of course a milsurp, no telling how much it has been shot! The .204 is a Savage and I can't tell how old it is, But far fewer shots that the old 96! I have many rifles & any cratering could be traced back to resized necks too far back or just too much powder, but that is not the issue here, I am sure! Dammit, I hate to go back to the gunsmith, I just left $220 there. I can't take him to raise, if I did I would dress him better!LOL

[versifier]

Erosion in the throat would lower your pressures and open up your groups. That is definitely not the problem. And no, it would not have any effect on the NOGO gauge. It's not going to be expensive to have him check the headspace, (maybe a bit more if he doesn't have a set of .204 gauges).

A bore scope wouldn't tell you what you want to know.

I don't think you are over reacting. There is a problem there somewhere. Probably it's not serious, but I would want to get to the bottom of it, and the only way to do it is by looking at it logically and eliminating one possible cause at a time. It has already been narrowed down quite a bit.

If it's a Savage, then there is a possibility the barrel may have been changed or replaced and it was not headspaced correctly when reassembled. (All you need to do it is a wrench, a vise, a GO gauge, and an understanding of how to do it properly.) That's why you need to check it next, after micing the case heads.

Best case it's a minor adjustment, worst it's a new barrel, much cheaper than a new rifle. There are a bunch of cartridges with the same head diameter, so you would have many interesting options if you had to go that way: .204, .222, .223, .222Mag, 6mmTCU, 6.5mmTCU, 7mmTCU, .300Whisper, 30/.223......

[fishnbob]

Is contacting the factory an option to see if I can return it to be checked? The barrel has not been removed as I've never seen one removed that I couldn't tell. It is too new for that. I'm saying that if it has a problem, it most likely came from the factory with it.
In micing the case heads, I have found a few thousandths difference in factory unfired cases and it doesn't look too different from my fired ones.

[versifier]

Returning it to the factory is certainly an option, and if you are seeing a few thousandths difference in the case heads, you have a good reason to contact them. The heads are not supposed to expand at all below the web under normal circumstances, so I would conclude the over pressure signs you are seeing are for real. I have never had to send a Savage product back for warranty or other work, so I would be very interested in how they respond to your difficulty. Please keep us posted on developments.