Toying with a New wild cat

Over here some years ago a .222 Rimmed was devloped for use in Martini cadet actions .The data was 222 data reduced by 5% I have never been a fan of the .222 as a hunting round really beliving whilst it was a great Target round it lacked the power to really hit hard out at any great distance when it came to Roos ! I have the oppertunity to obtain a barrel for a cadet action & was thinking of maybe rechambering the barrel to 6mm & developing loads for a 6mmx222R in the hope of maybe giving the round a little more punch ! Any ideas, opions ?


Dave

6mmTCU (6mm-223Rem or 6x45mm) is built on the longer .223 case. That was supposed to be capable of taking deer sized game with no problems. There were also 6.5mm, 7mm, and .30 versions. I will be building a .30/.223 on a Contender carbine eventually - in the same class as the .30-30 and 7.62x39 - a little higher pressure to make up for smaller powder capacity. I plan on using it for hunting and cast booliting with weights from 100-150gr. It has been a good performer for silhouettes with up to 200gr bullets, but the heavy ones don't go fast enough to kill cleanly. I believe that there was a rimmed version of the case for European combination guns, but I can't find a listing for it in COTW.
The Whisper cartridges, 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, & .30 are all built on the shorter .221 case. They are primarily for sils with heavy bullets, but are still capable hunting rounds if the ranges are reasonable and the shot placement is careful.
Since the Whispers are adequate, I would think the 6mm/.222 with slightly more powder capacity ought to be a good performer on something deer or roo sized out to 150 yards or so with an 80-100gr bullet. It's certainly not in the .243 class, but for the short ranges you have mentioned, it should work just fine. I don't know how strong the Martini action is, but even if you could only load it to the same performance levels as the Whisper you'd still have a usable performer.

I rang my Barrel maker today & put the question to him about the rechambering job & after the pregnat pause he replied (with a voice that sounded like something from the Exosit :shock: ) That yes it would be possible & yes if I promise never to bother him again with another Wildcat & stop telling everybody that he makes barrels using mild steel (some people have no sence of humor[smilie=1: ) He'll not only do the job but will ream a set of dies to Fit the chamber ! What a Guy........Same he makes Barrels that are that Bent they shoot round cnrs !!!!!! (Hey I only said no to mild steel !)


Dave

Hi Dave

I'm not familiar with the Cadet either but if that's punch you're looking for what about the 7-30 Waters?
Ctges Of The World says that some .310 Martini actions were proofed at up to 60000 psi and chambered in 357 and 44 Mag...

about th 7-30:
http://www.reloadingroom.com/page29.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/7-30Waters_Imp.htm

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Originally Posted by kg42

Hi Dave

I'm not familiar with the Cadet either but if that's punch you're looking for what about the 7-30 Waters?
Ctges Of The World says that some .310 Martini actions were proofed at up to 60000 psi and chambered in 357 and 44 Mag...

about th 7-30:
http://www.reloadingroom.com/page29.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/7-30Waters_Imp.htm

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Kg I played round with the 7-30 a couple of years ago based on a martini cadet action as well as the 30 Herrot ! Both were great rounds (and still are ) It's just I get bored & start thinking what if I .........? PLus the Fact it keeps My barrel maker occupied trying to satisfy my whims (come to think about it I did the same thing with his father before him :twisted: ) I like to think of it as a harmless hobbie !

Dave

Dave, does he make the barrels himself?

Have you heard about that new chinese 5.8 mm caliber? I just zipped through an article at the store....Think about the challenge of getting hunting bullets :mrgreen:

And that 6.8 (277?) Remington caliber based on a modified 35 case? You could make your rimmed ones with some good old .303?

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Originally Posted by versifier

Dave, does he make the barrels himself?

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Yes the Firm is called Sprinter arms & has been round as long as I can remember I won't use any other type of barrel! Even when I buy a New rifle it goes straight to sprinters for a new barrel ! They still use the Old methord of dragging one groove at a time & then drive a Brass Rod with a small ball on the end to remove any high points or imperfections (virtily the Barrel is run in before you get it ) THe origanal owner (long dead now ) Was a avid wild catter ! He would also ask wht weight bullet you planed to use & custom the twist to that weight ! He was the most Foul tempered so & so I have encountered ! It was more than once I ! Ran out of his workshop with a Blank flying after me ! When you picked up a rifle he would open the back doors of his shop & fire your rifle into a Big Old Oak in his back yard (it has been a long disscussed tpic of how many tons of lead & copper were shot into that tree over the years ! His son now runs the show & whilst being calmer than his father still pretends to hate us all !

Dave

How much $ do his barrels run? (chambering and fitting, too)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by versifier

How much $ do his barrels run? (chambering and fitting, too)

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Average price is $400.00 Chambered & fitted Re chambering & reboreing Average about $380.00 (this is in Australian Dollars ) For a standard weight & contour Barrel . Stainless & medium barrels of course are higher But they do have a amazing selection of reamers ! Nothing seem's to Faze Keith over much (apart from aligations of mild steel barrels & bent barrels :-D )

Dave

Dave, have you tried reboring? Is it as good as a barrel made from scratch...?

kg

Over the Years I have achived Nortriety with the number of Barrels that I have had rebored to get two lives out of one Barrel ! From .310 Cadets rebored to 357 to a .308 out to 358 (I have a habit of using medium weight barrels for this purpose ) I stumbled across this methord by accident years ago when I had brought a 8x57 & had to get it rebarreled Hector at Sprinters rang me & asked that I come to his shop as soon a I got the chance as there was something he wanted to show me ( after checking with all & sundry that I wasn't going to get Yelled at or beaten for some insult towards him ! :) ) I turned up to be shown that the underside of the Barrel had a matching set of Proof marks From the Factory! Except the origianal markings claimed my rifle had started it's life as a 7x57 ! I found & find no noticeable loss of accuracy by doing this with in reason.

Dave

Dave, that's a really good deal.
In my own experience, the effectiveness of a reboring job depends on several factors. There are two different objectives in reboring. One creates a larger bore barrel that is then (hopefully) reamed and rifled, the other involves relining.
A reboring bit is a long, piloted, fluted bit that can be operated two ways, chucked in a drill with the bit rotating, or with the barrel in a lathe rotating and the bit stationary (either in the tailstock or in a block like I was taught to use a chambering reamer). The pilot is supposed to keep the new bore concentric with the old bore, and usually does, but some runout can and does occur, more with the hand drilling method than with the lathe. If the lathe operator has some experience in knowing how often to pull the bit, clean the flutes, and reoil, the results can be impressive.
If the barrel is to be relined, it is thoroughly cleaned and degreased at this point, and the bore size double checked. If all is well, the new liner is soldered into place, and the barrel recrowned, rechambered, and refitted in the action. This isn't a really difficult job and is a common solution to get an antique firearm with a shot-out barrel back into action without altering its chambering, markings, or outward appearance.
If it is to be reborn in a larger bore and new chambering, the barrel is measured and inspected. If it looks good, subsequent reaming(s) can then proceed easily and effectively to bring the bore to a uniform and correct diameter. It can then be rifled by any of several conventional and/or antiquated methods. Finally, it's chambered for the new cartridge, headspaced, etc., and refitted. Any feeding issues are found and corrected.
A decent lathe makes the job easier in many ways, most importantly alignment and the self-centering nature of a turning workpiece vs. the turning tool bit. Bubba with a hand drill can make a godawful mess out of a barrel in short order by trying to force the bit at a faster feed rate than it wants to go, by not stopping, cleaning, and reoiling often enough (chips catch under the flutes and chew deep grooves in the bore:cry: ), not feeding the bit straight and causing excessive runout (I saw a 24" barrel that some idiot had redrilled right through the side at about 16":oops: ). On the other hand, an experienced machinist/gunsmith can get acceptable results with a hand drill by proceeding slowly and carefully. There will probably be more runout than with a lathe, but there is often more runout in factory barrels than you would believe, and they can be made to shoot well as long as they are properly indexed and carefully crowned with a piloted crowning tool.:)
It's getting harder and harder to find decent gunsmiths, at least around here, as it's become pretty much a profitless labor of love. Most of the work seems to be drilling and tapping holes for scope mounts or reciever sights and installing the occasional recoil pad. Small town gunsmiths are rapidly going the same way as mom and pop gun stores. There are a few trying to work the trade who know just enough to be dangerous, so ask for references and check them out before committing heirlooms and cash.

Having sat quietly & watched the boy's at sprinters Re cutting a barrel ! It seems to me that it is truley a labour of love at the very least ! I have seen barrels resleeved but have never gone this way myself ! I had a custom .22 built years ago that has a stainless barrel of abut 3/8 of a inch that was inserted into a 3/4 inch light alloy barrel (the object of the exersize was to have a light weight rifle with the added barrel damping of a medium weight barrel ) The Gun smith who built it (Mev Naughton ) passed away shortly after & his company Fieldman folded ! We have the same problem over here these days many of the Old smiths have retired & there are quite a few of the Backyarders springing up ! Most of whom I would'nt trust to repair a Kid's cap gun let alone a real firearm !

Dave

G'day d o k, Versifer & kg42,
I have been reading this thread with interest as last year I received what was left of a bush gunsmith/trinkerer's equipment from his son in law. It is can be observed in his work the amount of "make do" with what he had available. Most of his efforts were based around the Martini Cadet action as the were several barrels for calibres such as .22/310, .256 magnum, .410/303 shotgun and several unknown cartridges.
Included in the equipment I obtained were several case forming dies, some of which may be for the aforementioned calibres, others for wildcat cartridges he may have been planning for in the future. There is one barrel I will need to chamber cast to find out what it is based on and form of case. The barrell is a No1 Mk3* barrel, shortened and rechambered for a cartridge somewhere between the .357" Mag and the .44" Mag, possibly .41 necked to .303" on a .310 Martini action.

When checking through the case form dies I located the one I thought was the correct die for this calibre, lubed a .44mag case and pushed it in and out came the result in the picture, .30/44 mag next to a .221 Rem Fireball.
Luckily, several samples of the .22/310 Cadet survived and came with the gear. I can try and find where I have placed mine and post some photos.

The case in the photo would be interesting to try as a cast bullet cartridge as loading at 100% would see velocities within the range of cast projectiles.

John.

G'Day John
That 30-44 is one damned interesting round I must say ! I heard many years ago of a chap who had got a 44 down to .22 but never put much faith in it (Old cry of I think the chap in question was handleing the truth a little carelessly) as for the 22-310 I've seen a couple of these over the years made by avid wild cater's ! The closest I ever came was forming my own 22-303 wasps which were a 1 1/4 inch case ! I mght add they caused many a nervious breakdown ! I will watch with intrest for any load development you do with the 30-44 as I would'nt mind playing with something along those lines myself !

Dave

I'm into all things .30cal, especially the little guys. That one looks to be made for cast boolits. All data provided will be hungrily consumed. :-D

I've been working with something very close to what your're asking about. It's the 6x223; or 6mmx45mm. With a 22 inch barrel I can get 3000fps to 3100fps using 70gr bullets. I have pushed it past that; but pressure's are a little too much in my rifle. I wanted a walk about Coyote rifle with a little more power than my 223. It's a good idea for a fun hunting rifle of smaller game.