OK everybody, lets hear your thoughts and opinions. What was/is the strongest SMALL ARMS action ever devised?
I say the falling block. Sharps, Ruger #1, etc...
Printable View
OK everybody, lets hear your thoughts and opinions. What was/is the strongest SMALL ARMS action ever devised?
I say the falling block. Sharps, Ruger #1, etc...
Many years ago I believe I read somewhere in P.O. Ackley's writings that he'd run a test on this subject and if I remember correctly he found the Arisika to be the strongest. But this is all a moot point because all modern actions are sufficiently strong. The brass is the weakest component and will give out before the action does.
I've never blown up a gun but have seen many others blow them and I've noted that many times the brass will give out and the action will be unharmed. Of course, there are blow-ups where everything is lost. But usually the brass is ruined and stuck in the chamber but the action unharmed. I believe actions are engineered to protect fools from themselves.
Almost by definition a muzzle loader. No moving parts! Now if you want to discuss repeating actions then you have to guess the Mauser action though as lovedogs has pointed out strong enough is strong enough.
Take Care
Bob
I will agree with Bob. For repeating actions I would say the Mauser design is the strongest.
I don't plan on blowing up any of my rifles to find out. :-D
The Arisaka is a modified Mauser 98 design, as is the Springfield. Other than minor differences in their bolts, the actions are all pretty much the same. I would not have the same confidence in actions made by slave labor for Germany and Japan later in WWII as I would their pre-war versions, maybe the practical differences are only cosmetic, maybe not. Possibly the post-war actions are made from better steel as advances were made in our knowlege of metalurgy, but my 1916 Oberndorf to my eye approaches being a work of art. I don't load or shoot max loads in it, so I'll likely never find out just how strong it is. (I have a Yugo if I ever want to push the performance level.) The old girl will spend the rest of her days with me on a diet of mostly cast boolits.
My 95 in 7mm seems almost fragile in comparison, but it's primarily a cast boolit shooter now, too. Bubba got to it before I did, so I may rebarrel to something mild like 6.5x55, or .308x1.5. It shoots around 1" at 50yds with 140gr cast, though, so I'm not in a hurry!
The Ross rifle MkIII (1910) action takes anything you can throw its way. It's essentialy a shoulder fired howitzer with a massive reinforced ring/chamber and inretupted threaded bolt head.
P.O. Ackley ran a test, with all the military actions, and the Jap Arisaka was the strongest. He said that they rechambered it to 300 H&H I believe, and got up the pressure as hi as it would go. He said that the worst thing that happened was the barrel blew of, and went down range, but he just screwed on a new one and kept right on shootin
Daniel/BS Jr.
For my money, the strongest action is probably the Martini. Even the little toy cadet actions are incredible: The ASSRA has an article in their archives to illustrate the point, but as I recall, when the little Cadet Francotte rifles were being sold over here for about ten or fifteen bucks, the Aussie exporter got to wondering just how safe they were, and decided to run some tests.
The subject rifle was a rusty, beat-up clunker, not in the best of shape anyhow. He pulled the barrel and rechambered it for standard .303 British ball ammo, which is .004" oversize for the .310 Cadet barrel. The Cadet ate it up: No signs of excess pressure. So they re-throated it for the 200 or 220 ball ammo. Again, the Cadet hardly noticed it. The action didn't freeze up or give any other problems, so they started reloading for it. I don't remember the details (look up the article if you just have to know), but they finally ended up with a bomb of a 303 case full of a local powder similar to IMR 4227 under the oversized 220g bullet.
Well, the barrel wouldn't handle that, though it had taken everything up to that point, and that included some gut wrenching stuff that had left proof loads way back yonder in the dust. But with this load, the thin Cadet barrel blew out in front of the action. When it did, it also tore the front edge of the Cadet action, ruining the frame. But the rest of the action (breechblock, trigger assembly, etc) just slid out normally, and was still perfectly functional in another action frame. The article has photos if youu want to see them.
Now if those dinkly little miniature kid rifles, made with antique metalurgy, could hold up to that sort of abuse, I don't even want to know what it would take to destroy a full sized regular Martini rifle. But if anyone finds anything stronger, it's probably got large wheels for towing, or it's a prominent feature of a battleship turret.
Molly
Hi Molly, welcome at reloaders!
Pictures would be great, thanks.
The story reminded me of some events aboard the Richelieu battleship during WWII. She had fled the German to Dakar, only to be caught there by the British, who wanted all significant French ship as low as possible in the water.
During the fight, a strange event happened.
The regulations called for a bore inspection after each shot, with the words "bore clear", or other terms about possible obstructions.
Well at some point the sailor in charge called "bore too clear", which wasn't in the book. A brief second check showed that indeed, the bore was very clear because that barrel had been severed shortly after the turret wall...
It was later deduced that the priming system on the shells was at fault. Several "timers" were available in the form of canals drilled in the projectiles, and some weak fittings allowed an almost immediate explosion...
I think some mishap happened to another cannon and the big lady finished the fight with two guns (the available crew could only man one of the two main turrets from the start).
kg
I like the posts more or less saying.... most actions are strong enough for a margin of safety for even the most challenged of reloaders :)
Seriously, I have no idea the strongest action.
In the oldies... I do know however that the old Winchester toggle link types such as in the 73s are not to be pushed too hard. I do know that the Win 1886, 92 and 71s are very strong as are the 1895 levers and 1885s. The modern Marlin 1895 action type is pretty strong.
Of course all the various Mauser type bolt actions are strong. The Ruger #1s are strong. The Arisaka is supposed to be one of the strongest of the bolt types. Hatcher's Notebook has some interesting stuff on a few action types including the Garand.
Back in a past life I had the opportunity to purposefully try to blow up some guns under controlled conditions and for different purposes and got paid for it :) So long ago I barely remember the exact models, but one surely impressed me. I think it was a small ring Mauser of Latin Am origin?? in 7X57. It was fired with a load estimated at producing well in excess of 200k psi. I will say after the test that even that action, one that many of the so called experts say is weaker by Mauser standards showed exceptional strength!!! Of course the test ruined the gun/action but the bolt moved rearward only about 1/2" and the chamber and receiver ring did not burst. If nothing else- it re-enforced a couple of things for me.... that action is strong but more importantly I don't want to accidentally "try that at home"..... with any gun, strong or not! I load conservatively and carefully.
I think that at least one other poster said that past a certain point of action strength the weakest link becomes evident and that is the cartridge case- couldn't agree more. Many of the better single shots, maybe some of the newer levers and most of the better bolt actions are probably stronger than the brass cartridge cases they house for firing. At that point it becomes a matter of gas management... which opens up another point for discussion. Again, I prefer not to find out first hand! The small ring Mauser I attempted to blow up on purpose didn't come apart like a cheap suit- just scattered a few small parts and splinters around. According to the high speed video recording, the largest piece was the extractor flying off to the right side and to the rear. But, the orange plasma ball of roughly 2-2 1/2 ft diameter that surrounded the action, at firing, would have been the greatest threat to the shooter. This was done in an open air bunker and the sound was very unique. Not a big "boom" like many would suspect but more of a muffled, high pitched "crack"- not unlike the sound made by detonation of a small charge of high velocity explosive.
Reload with respect for the potentials and with full attention to detail.
This is subject for debate after a long day out hunting. I like the Mauser actions for their strength, the Ruger #1s are also tough. The others mentioned here I have little experience with, except the M1 Garand, I have seen the operating rod bow out to the side from people trying to get that load tuned for 600 to 1,000 meters.
Jerry
When the Garand was being tested.... long strings of very high pressure loads were used. Hatcher's Notebook will shed some light on the findings. My guess about the bent operating rod stories has to do with using the wrong bullet and powder combination. It's been known for a long time in the Garand that the combination of heavy bullets and slow powders is a no-no. Naturally, long range target shooters like long, heavy bullets and slow powder. The big bullet gets to the muzzle and the large charge of slow, progressive powder is still generating accelerating pressures. The gas port on the stock Garand is near the muzzle so the gas pressure excerted on the operating rod exceeds the design of the gun. Result- bent rod, etc.... Fairly common.
The repeated high pressure, destructive testing that was done on the Garand leaves no doubt of the great strength of the design. Preferred bullet weights are in 150-165 gr. range. With the preferred powder being something like 4895. Loading 180-200 grain bullets on top of powders like 4831 or slower is asking to bend a rod... even though both load combinations are loaded to the same peak pressure of say 50K psi.
Rem or Win made 1917 Enfield ( P or M - 17 ) is about as strong as any Bolt gun. About 40 years ago I tried to blow one up and couldn't, Drove 10 bullits into the barrel behind each other from the rear then loaded a case full of powder with no bullit in it. Tied it to a truck tire and pulled the trigger with a loooooong string. Totally destroyed the case but never hurt the action or barrel at all. olddudeone
DUDE!!!! your crazy! In my opinion, the arisaka is the strongest!Quote:
Originally Posted by olddudeone
Tony
Hey all. I saw Akleys tests mentioned,and he did say the Arisaka was strongest..with qulifications. Don,t remember the date/sn mentioned but the later efforts where investment cast. He found they would grow extra headspace with normal loads in the original chambering. There was also a piece in the article by a metalurgist who said the heat treating on the action/bolt was very elaborate for the time and was the main factor in the strength of the action.
IIRC, someone on CB did a test using the Mosin action. Ended up loading the case with Bullseye and blew the barrel off! But no damage to the receiver.
I'm not going to approach that type of insanity, but it is nice to know my reloading error may be protected by the action strength.
I've got a Shiloh Sharps that seems quite strong but I think the strongest action I've got is a Pete Grizel small ring double square bridge Mauser action. It's built with the best improvments from the pre 64 Mod 70, the Mauser and the O3 actions. My serial number is #44. They later morphed into the Dakota rifle but this was built before Pete designed the Dakota. At the time when it was available Guns and Ammo did an article that it's the best Mauser action ever made. That was back in the 1980's and it is a Mauser type built with the best steel made at the time.