I asked this question over at CB, was wondering if anyone on here had any ideas..
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...ead.php?t=5397
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I asked this question over at CB, was wondering if anyone on here had any ideas..
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...ead.php?t=5397
Mmmmmmmm Mr Master, that's a big case you've got there... :0
My notes from the Hodgdon Data Manual Nr 25 for the 308 Norma Mag are as follow:
150GC: 17grH4227/1565fps, 25grH4198/1844fps, 30grH4895/1878fps
180GC: 18grH4227/1520fps, 25grH4198/1803fps, 30grH4895/1736fps.
These are maximum loads.
kg
Thanks KG, I like shootin the big guns :)
I got this info sent to me:
Red Dot 16.0-19.0
700x 14.0-17.0
Green Dot 16.0-19.0
unique 18.0-22.0
sr-7625 15.0-18.0
630 21-26
sr-4759 30.5-40.0
rx7 37.0-48.0
748 45.0-60.0
h4895 40.5-56.0
imr-4064 42.0-60.0
I'm wonderin about that H4895....
Why? http://forums.1911forum.com/images/smilies/biglaugh.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Gunload Master
The free data manual Booklet gives 62.3 as a max with a 150grBAR(nes?)XBT/3098fps/53400cup (300wby).
IMR's Guide gives 64gr max for the 300win and their 4895 with a 150gr jacket (3210fps/53000cup).
Have a look there, but it's about 4759 and 4198:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/reduced_recoil_reloads.htm
And maybe some more ideas there:
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
And from a post at Graybeard for the 300win:
"Lyman's manual(45th Ed) shows:
155gr gas check:
15 - 18gr unique, 23 - 27gr 2400, 24 - 28gr 4227
173gr gas check:
14 - 17gr unique, 22 - 26gr 2400, 22 - 27gr 4227
193gr gas check:
14 - 16gr unique, 20 - 27gr 2400, 20 - 27gr 4227 "
What kind of speed did you want?
Well, I was wanting around 3,200. I am not too knowledgeable on cast boolits but I am trying. So bare with me :) But do you think I could push these that fast?
[smilie=w: [smilie=w:
Of course Master, this shall be done, speed is only one element in a load's life :mrgreen:
2700 fps is usually considered about the max with gas-check, linotype/equivalent and the best lubes.
It seems to be easier in small (.22) calibers with short, stubby bullets; one of the issues being the warping of long noses, even hard cast.
You should go through the old Castboolits posts for recipes and experiments. I borrowed "The Art of Bullet Casting" from the library yesterday but none of the articles covers magnum rifle calibers.
For such speeds I would go the Paper Patch way. The NRA states that 3000fps was achieved in a 300WinMag.
There is (was?) a good summary about it in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. I could type the essential in the "Paper Patch" thread if anybody is interested. Unfortunately that handbook was stolen from the library and I didn't copy the rifle loads before...
Also I posted a few links with essential pictures in that PPatch thread.
if hunting is your aim, you might run in conflicts between speed and bullet hardness.
Master . What about 150 gn MIN 61.7 & a Max of 69.0 of H4895 for the Weatherby 300 mag which gives just over the 3300fps mark ? or a reduced load of 41.4 of H4895 with the 150 gn cast ?
Dave
Dave, what kind of alloy do you use for hunting, and for which calibers besides the 30-30?
Can you keep track of the bullet fragmentation/weight retention?
thnks :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kg42
I use a mixture of 50 % linotype & 50% of range salvaged lead,I weed out the .22 stuff ! I hunt with .22 hornet (40-45 gn ) .303brit 185,215 gn & 45-70 405 gn & my lad uses his (was my rainy day converstion martini project ) 310 cadet with a 125gn rn I tend to find with the larger bullets I get very little fragmentation & about 60-75% wieght retention . But I use solids & only drive them at moderate verlosities ! Relying on more bullet placement than anything else ! I am in the school of thought of a miss costs me money .So it's a case of if I don't think I can take the shot I want I don't risk it On the little Hornet bullets I have found that they dont retain much of their weight & tend to be a little brittle on anything bigger than a fox .
Dave
I cannot make a powder recommendation here, nor lube, as I wouldn't even think about trying to push them as fast as 3200fps, but I do have a few thoughts on the matter and the difficulties involved. The speediest .30 cal load I use is with the Lee 113gr "soupcan", 2700fps, with RE-7 out of a .30-30 case. It is a GC boolit, cast from pure lino and water dropped. (As hard an alloy as it is possible to achieve.) Though I have tried, I have never personally been able to stabilize anything heavier at much over 2000fps in a .30-30, .30 Herrett, .308, or .30-06.
The problem with pushing them so fast is that the boolits strip in the rifling, filling up your grooves with lead alloy. These incompletely stabilized boolits shoot "groups" like a shotgun pattern, fliers and keyholers. With such a hugely capacious case, it is also a necessary added safety precaution to "upend" it (point the muzzle straight up in the air) after chambering and before each shot to insure proper ignition of the powder and avoid the danger of SEE.
It's amusing, as I often find myself trying to explain to people who want to hunt deer with vastly underpowered cartridges that what they need is a bigger case. The problem here is that you are using a case designed to throw a 180+gr jbullet at mv's that retain enough energy to cleanly take a deer at beyond 300yds. Do not despair, though, you can shoot cast out of it, and you can do it safely, but the WBY case has about 5X the powder capacity necessary. The inherent strength (or the lack thereof) of lead and lead alloys is the limiting factor here. They aren't hard or strong enough to be spit out at hyper velocities. The combination of very hard alloy, gas check, and paper patching (which needs an undersized boolit to start with) can gain you some velocity, but I doubt you will be able to even approach 3000fps with a boolit whose weight will be well stabilized with the twist rate of your barrel (180-220gr, IRRC). This is not to say that you can't get safe, accurate, and effective hunting loads worked up for use at reasonable (150yds) ranges, or various target loads for anything from plinking to silhouettes at much longer ranges, you just have to be aware of the practical limits that you have to work within. If your expectations are reasonable, you can have a lot of fun and satisfaction while you're at it.
One other idea that might make load development easier and safer is one of those cartridge conversion adapters. I'm not talking about a chamber insert. These are gizmos whose outer dimensions match the chambering and hold a smaller case of the same caliber. They feed through the magazine like the case for which the rifle is chambered. They come apart and are available to hold anything from a .30Carb to an -06 case. If you got one in .30-30, 7.62x39, or .308, you would then have a case with the appropriate powder capacity for the light charges that are all cast boolits require, with no potential ignition problems or SEE danger.
Dave, thanks for the infos.
Master, I remembered today that Wby rifles have a hell of a freebore, in their own wby calibers... and you might have difficulties seating the bullet close enough from the rifling... at least if you intend to feed them through the mag.
If so, a loverin bullet might come handy, specially if you are looking for top speed; they are almost fully supported by the bore, but might still jump the grooves if coming from too far too fast; I don't know, I've never used them.
Yours is the 311291 if I remember:
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/rbulleta.htm
Lyman's drawings are baaad!
Thanks for all the info here, I am learning new stuff all the time, especially with cast boolits. I guess to say, I am not really concerned if the boolit don't reach a 3,000 FPS range. Just as long as I can shoot the cast out with reasonable accuracy at 100. I got some ideas in mind with some powders mentioned earlier. I just have to load some up now. I'll post results.
Willy, E.H.Harrison (NRA) commisioned Lyman to produce several molds (#s 301618 @ 160gr. & 301620 @ ~196gr.) for paper patching in the .308Win., .30-06, and .300Mag. Oddly enough, the patched bullets (#301618 + 70gr. WW 785) outshot Winchester and Peters factory loads. That's the good news. The bad news is those molds are extremely rare and cast a CB of .301" (to be patched up to .310" - .311"). You can substitute #311467 or even #311299, cast to 16-18 BHN, but you'll need to have a .301"sizing die made to reduce their diameter. (Lee Precision should be able to do this.) Although Harrison's patched CB's came close to 3,000fps, accuracy, though very good, was no better on average than 1.47". If your heart is set on ~3,000fps with CB's, paper patching hard CB's, (very time consuming) is the way to go. On the other hand, if you're not yet ready for that challenge, why not experiment with various reduced loads and #311291 or even #311284? Hope this helps!
Just wondering if you are getting anywhere with this project?
I got four-five shot test rounds loaded and ready for the range. Havent made it up there quite yet though. I am going to try IMR 4831 40gr - 50gr and see how it shoots. I'm figuring around 2,000 FPS. Once I see what this can do, i'm going to start going faster and hopefully see if I can reach the 2,700 FPS point.
I am figuring on this coming friday for some serious testing, hopefully sooner but if not...
I will post my targets and keep everyone updated on how this turns out.
Posted this at CB forum too. Had to post it here too. Thanks for the help, I'm off to a good start :)
What a beautiful day at the range today! About 3 inches of snow and around 30 degrees...... Well.. maybe not the best day to go shoot, but what the heck.
Today was the first day I shot cast from my .300 weatherby. Special thanks to David R. and Kenjuudo for suppling me with boolits to shoot.
Powder of choice was IMR 4831 and I started at 40 grains, and worked up to 50 grains. 4 lots, a 40 grain, 45 grain, 47 grain, and 50 grain. Shooting a boolit around 180 grain (311291).
It's a scoped rifle which is setup for shooting roughly 3,200 FPS and I knew I wouldnt be anywhere near this, so I thought I would fire these off at 50 yards and see where they go. I'll give a conclusion after the pics.
http://gunloads.com/images/personal/40grain.gif
40 grain was somewhat speratic. I only chronyed one that came out at 1,703 FPS.
http://gunloads.com/images/personal/45grain.gif
45 grain I think is where i'm going to work around, split a couple holes there, chronyed two at 1929 FPS and 1844 FPS.
http://gunloads.com/images/personal/47grain.gif
47 grain did alright Chronyed 4 at 2001 FPS, 1909 FPS, 1889 FPS, and 1922 FPS
http://gunloads.com/images/personal/50grain.gif
50 grain.. not too great. Chronyed 5 at 2,096 FPS 2033 FPS 2050 FPS 2100FPS and 2043 FPS.
Overall it shot much better then I expected. I've never shot cast out of a rifle so this was really new to me and it seemed to do really good. I'm going to work around 45 grains and see if I can lower the grouping more.
I'm also going to heat things up a bit with these bad boys. I've heard pushing cast at 2,700 FPS is around max? So I'm going to be loading up some higher grain rounds and see if I can get around that barrier http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/...on_twisted.gif ...
Enjoy.
50yds is a good range for preliminary testing. You can fine tune your better loads at 100yds later. I'd say you found a workable deer load at 47gr. Did you remember to get ALL of the copper fouling out of the barrel before shooting? I suspect you did from the groups, but figured I'd mention it as doing so can turn a good load into a great one. The ES at 112fps was much higher than I'd like to see though and I am not sure what caused it. That much velocity variation is not conducive to best accuracy, and with the great group you already got, I believe you could cut it's size significantly if you can find out why. It's probably just a little tweak needed here or there. What kind of primers did you use? Did you crimp the boolits? If so, roll, taper, or collet? If not, I would, for more consistant ignition.
It looks like the group is starting to open up at 50gr. If so, you might have already found this powder's sweet spot. Any leading in the barrel? If there isn't, the boolit is strong enough and can go faster, but you might have to use another powder to keep the group size down.
Yea I cleaned my barrel up to be pretty sparkly inside. I used some sweets and hoppes to get er cleaned up.
I was rather surpised to see such variation in the FPS myself from these boolits... I could see a 25-50 FPS varience but some of those were over 100 FPS +-... Is that normal?
As far as primers go, I like to use the Federal matchgrade.. They work out great.
Never crimped the boolits.. Like I say, I am new to cast :)
Fouling is very minut in there, it's not very much at all, luckily. And Kenjuudo said his boolits can take on more aggressive speeds. So I'll certainly test them out.
I'm going to take this gun to NCBS so hopefully I can get some good ideas on how this stuff works :)
No Willy, it's not normal. Even 50fps would be pushing it.
Try a light crimp first. That's the easiest and might solve it right away. Some loads need it in certain rifles, even the larger diameter cast boolits.
Are the Federal match primers magnums? (I prime with Lee tools, so I am limited to CCI & Win - don't know much about others.)
Another thing you should be doing anyway, which I'm not sure if I mentioned, is that after chambering, point the muzzle straight up and slap the action with the flat of your hand to settle the powder charge in the bottom of the case before each shot. This will help insure consistant ignition with small volume charges in a case like yours (the size of an airplane hangar. :-D) This could also explain the high ES and is very simple to test for.
Lack of fouling is a positive sign. The boolit is strong enough to take a higher velocity, but I don't know if the accuracy will degrade with the current powder when you do. Try it and see.
As Verisfier has pointed out a slight crimp will help bring the velocity spread down. I use a Lee factory crimp die to get the job done. This will also bring your group size down.
You might also want to try a faster burning powder. 4831 is a slow burning powder meant for heavy jacketed boolits. My 300 Win Mag likes 21 grains of 4198 w/ a 176 grain GC cast
(311041 Lyman). My 30-30 and a friends 308 likes that boolit also. Have fun and be safe.
Mike S.