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Want to take the next step up the ladder of Bullet Casting. Have a sharps in 40-90SBN that I would like to start paper patch loading.
Questions
How much smaller than the bore does the mould have to be?
What is a good make of mould, prefer to get a custom built are adjustable moulds any good?
How many wraps of paper?
Do you crimp the bullets?
What kind of paper to use?
Will think of more that I have forgotten.
Any input would be wonderful thanks Ken.[smilie=w:
Well in case we don't have a guru here...:
(me I totally agree that these metal patched bullets they try to sell us are just a fling, and I would go paper patch rather than search for the holy grail with lubes and alloys, but I mostly shoot handgun at the time so...)
Make a web search for "paper patched", "paper patching", and read first from Paul A Matthews, who has a nice web page and sells a book too; or maybe the nice site I remember is that one: http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html
Then, graybeardoutdoors' forum has a section for PP'ing.
I think the Cast Bullet Association has published stuff too, and there might be a Yahoo group...
What I understand is that you will make two wraps around the bullet, which should slightly bite the grooves; but read from the shooters first and then we can compare notes ;)
For the paper, an interesting idea I once read is that AirMail grade paper could come handy... you might try it before me obviously. If the bullet has to bite the grooves the paper thickness will have to match their dimension.
keep us (or me) informed on your progress.
kg
Go over next door to the Cast Boolits forum and contact Buckshot, who know a lot about it, or start a thread over there and everyone will jump in.
Kodiak1,Quote:
Originally Posted by kodiak1
My dad uses some paper patch in his 45/70, and some other rifles.
How much smaller than the bore does the mould have to be? About 7-10 thousands smaller. My dad uses heavy handgun bullets in his 45/70, one time used 348 bullets in his 35 wellen, and one time used 6.5 bullets in his 7 tcu.
What is a good make of mould, prefer to get a custom built are adjustable moulds any good? Just about any any mold that is the right diameter, and is a design that you like.
How many wraps of paper? My dad uses a gauge that he traces out, and that is the size that the patch has to be.
Do you crimp the bullets? Depends, but mostly yes.
What kind of paper to use? Cotton tracing paper.
That is about all that I can do.
DANIEL/BS JR.
I'm going to show my ignorence here reguards the type of paper used for patching bullets & ask (A) would grease proof/wax proof paper sufice ? (B) what is the advantage of paper patched bullets ? I owned a 577-450 years ago & it came with the origanal Ammo (some what green with age ) but the bullets were paper patched . I might also add the cases were soldiered to the base & up the side seem were they'd been formed ! scary stuff !
Dave
(A) would grease proof/wax proof paper sufice ?
Are you talking about cooking greased paper or factory packing paper ? Shooters have used teflon tape, for example. Too thick and the bullet won't grab the grooves.
(B) what is the advantage of paper patched bullets ?
You can use soft lead and not too magic lube at high vel ; unlubed patches will polish your bore :) ; and no more gaschecks albeit some have tried both at the same time (someone at castboolits I think).
Well the first cartridges had paper body attached to the head, if yours were silver soldered they were probably a high end product :mrgreen:Quote:
Originally Posted by d-o-k
Look at http://www.municion.org/ for more scary stuff...
More reading there: http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/
kg
Kg . Thanks for clearing up the reason & I was refering to the type of paper used in cooking . would this be sutible ?
Dave
dok, i just found my notes on PP'in.
I don't know about the cooking paper, I would give it a try at low pressure load. I'm not sure it could take much stress though, I don't have any at hand now... Another issue is that the process involves wetting the paper so that it dries/grabs on the bullet before lubing and final sizing.
An article from a Lyman CB Handbook based on the NRA's and some Col. Harrison works asks for " high grade bond with a 25% coton fiber content of about .0033 thickness".
Work in a 300 Win mag reached 3000fps with accuracy. Alloys recommended are however harder than I remembered with 16-20 bhn above 2500fps, 12-15 for most other applications.
Matthews recommends strong paper too (if not linen fiber), his best being 9 pounds 25% cotton fiber onion skin, cut across the grain (the fiber should be cut by the rifling during shooting, so must be wrapped perpendicularly).
He talks about 3 to 5% tin alloy for hunting and expansion.
That's pretty strong but then shooters have used about every paper they could think of; I think it depends on the load and the process : if you have to resize the patched bullet or not, etc...
Also, about the diameter of the bullet, aside for the recommendation to use slightly over bore diameter (Not over groove), several (Ray Ordorica, Ross Seyfried) have patched bullets much smaller, like 458 for 470NE (3 wraps), with success.
Maybe BullShop could talk about his experiments.
Is that the "parchment" paper used sometimes in the oven? Never tried that, and just seems a little thick.Quote:
Originally Posted by d-o-k
As mentioned above, 9 lb onion skin of 25% cotton fibre is frequently used, even for home made "flash paper" for breach loading black powder arms.
In my case the flash paper was used to make loads for a repro Sharps Carbine model of 1854 in .54 caliber. We made our own by soaking the onionskin in our home made solution. That paper is quite durable and still burned completely. We used black powder and a Minié in .54 caliber lighted off by a Musket (Top Hat) cap.
Two more links thanks to Castaway on CBoolits:
http://www.rceco.com/tech.html
http://www.rceco.com/bltswld.html
and the two i already mentionned:
http://www.iastate.edu/~codi/PPB/PPB.html
http://members.shaw.ca/bobschewe/
You should contact dave at Montana Bullet Works (www.montanabullet works.com/). He has two pp bullets in .45 cal at reasonable prices. Also has more info on PP. I' going to try his first before I try it on my own. Nope I don't have any connection, just a satisfied customer.
Welcome to the guide Buck!!!
Wlelcome to the guide Buck thanks for the link
Dave
Kodiak1, I hope you have your answers, I would just like to recap you can follow up with the reference sites given. First, the size of bullet for your Sharps is determined by the depth of your rifling. A lead ball or bullet should just ride the top of the lands. It should not drop freely through the barrel, it should easily be pushed through and just leave a slight etching on the ball/bullet. Once you have that dimension, get your bore dimension by slugging the barrel. The difference between the two dimensions tells you the thickness of the paper two wraps of paper on all sides so that is 4x thickness. Paper does compress but not much. So you have a range from onion skin or cigarette zig zag to 12 lb rag bond. Depending on YOUR rifling depth. Some like to semi glue the paper on the bullet others don’t. spit and egg whites in water are used, a little elmers works for me. You want the patch to fall away a few yards from the barrel or ride it to the target. And Crimps will cause you fits and make you grey. Most do not or if they do crimp very lightly. Crimping can deform the paper, the pill… Ugh. Hope this helps, and good luck. (Oh, If you want to try PP quick and dirty, use one wrap of freezer tape which is paper and sticks to the bullet). Read Matthews. JB
G'day
Another downunder shooter here. I have for some time been preparing to reload Paper Patched Projectiles for Black-powder cartridges. Having read what has been said here, I have to agree with most of what has been said.
Your best option would be to contact Wolfe Publishing and obtain a copy of Paul Matthew's "The Paper Jacket". I have read my copy many times and it contains all of the information one needs. What I have detected in most of Paul's works is that he is prepared to try different ideas to achieve his goals. A good source of paper 100% cotton is at Buffalo Arms Co. www.buffaloarms.com
What size projectile will work best with your rifle will only be found through experimentation. Some find that bore riders (close to interference fit) work better than loose fit (.447"). Two wraps of paper is the norm for the loaded cartridge where as a single wrap or strips can be used in muzzle loading rifles.
Paper patched projectiles will work with smokeless powder loads as well if Paul Matthew's experiments are correct.
I have shot the 577-450 Martini with paper patched pills some years ago and know of the cartridges d o k speaks of, these where Boxer manufactured rolled cases set in formed cups with a steel rim mainly pinned in place by the primer cup which is simular to the 209 shotshell primer.
I hope the above information has been helpful and please keep us informed of your efforts.
John
I had an order for some PP boolits so thought someone might find my method interesting.
These are 650gn 50 cal pure lead
Paper is 100% cotton fiber resume from office max.
They are run through a .512" sizer. You can see the base petals are pressed tightly and injected with lube and the patches are ironed on tightly. Maybe you cant see but there is a very thin film of lube on the patch. I have been doing it this way for 20 years and get excellent accuracy. Have taken moose, caribou, mule deer and grizzly, are ya ready for this carpetdude, all with one shot each.
I have done this with many of my 45 cal grease groove molds sized down to .452" and patched up to .460".
Have also dont it with a variety of other cals like 270/284 25/26 338/348 348/358 and so on.
I offer patching as a service for .05 ea..
BIC/BS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...p/cf33f16c.jpg
__________________
To All: This has given me lots of ideas and set me straight on a couple of other ideas that I had.
Got paper and a patch shape design for cutting proper patches from Buffalo Arms.
Found a 40 cal and a 45 cal paper patch moulds on Auction Arms.
Got a ton of advice off of the Black Powder Cartridge Forum on Cast Bullets.
So next is up to me and as soon as I get a little caught up its out to the shop to cast then down to the forbidden room of mystery to cut patch size lube and reload those priceless little gobs of lead.
THEN and ONLY THEN it will be an afternoon at the range seeding those little silver boolits into the backstop at the range.
Thanks Ken.
Get Col. E.H. Harrison's book 'Cast Bullets" from the NRA. It has a chapter on paper patched bullets. Great book too for a wealth of info on cast lead bullets. Alternatively, look into using teflon tape instead of paper. You just wrap the bullet in teflon tape, and run it through a sizer to set it. Sizer should probable be a tapered die that fit in your reloading press.
Bullshop,
How do you seat a paper patched boolit without tearing the paper? Belling die?Do you crimp them? Are there tricks to get them to feed easily/properly?
After five years of trying I have finally found THE load for my Marlin 1895g. Does everything I want done and is still shootable. I started with new Remington brass, annealed the first ¾ inch using the melted lead method, belled with a Lee expander and primed with CCI 200. The powder charge is 52gr AA 2495. I started with 48 and worked up with no signs of pressure. This is a compressed load, even using a 16 inch drop tube. The magic bullet is cast in a Lyman 451114 mould. The alloy is 17 parts pure lead, 2 ½ parts linotype, and ½ part tin. The bullet drops from the mould .451, 430gr and is ready for patching. I make my patches from 16lb green bar computer paper, cut 2.750 long on a 60* angle 1.500 high. I dip in water and wrap twice around the bullet. They are left to dry overnight, then lubed with BAC. Then the tails are clipped and the bullet is run through a .459 Lee sizing die. I seat them to an OCL of 2.580. These shoot clover leaf groups at 25 yards and into 1.75 at 100. This is with a Lyman 66 rear sight and factory front sight. Not bad for 55 year old eyes. Bullet performance on game is all one could ask for. I’ll not quit experimenting, but how does one improve on perfection?