Velocity is overated!

Yea you read the subject right, velocity is a very overated factor in loading rounds for hunting. I thought we needed a good contraversial subject, a subject that gets peoples juices going. I will use my .270 Winchester as an example, I have found over the years that it doesn't make one spit of difference if I load 130 partition @ 3,000 fps or if I load it @ 2,700 fps, the gun kills the same. If I place the bullet where it should be placed and do my part velocity has nothing to do with the kill, it is shot placement that seperates the quick humane kill from the gut shot suffering animal. We are in this trend in America where faster is better, just look at all the new cartridge developments in the last several years. The Remington Ultra Mags are geared for nothing but higher velocity, no one will tell me that a 300 Remington Ultra Mag will kill an elk any faster then a well placed shot from the old standby 300 Winchester Mag, we are programmed to believe this and to spend our money. And please don't give me the stuff about, "well I want to shoot that elk at 450 yards so I need the extra velocity", bull unless you are set up to shoot that far and you are well trained at shooting that distance, you shouldn't be doing it. I know you varmint hunters will take issue with all this and I will say that if there is one exception, it is in varmint hunting, but even then most of us are not set up or skilled enough to shoot beyond a couple hundred yards. Well there you have it, if I got your blood boiling, good, let's hear some sensible feed back.....
Dave T

Our freedoms are not free, they can't be bought with money, they can only be bought with blood.

On my Mr. Reliable 300 Weatherby, I use a Shepeard scope. If you don't know what they are, it's basically a range finder inside the scope, but it uses Circles. Each circle represents 18 inches at a given distance. From 100 Meters to 1000 Meters. The scope is setup for 3200 FPS. I have loaded rounds around 2,900 FPS and 3200 FPS and I can say it really does make a difference when you get out even to 200 meters there is noticable difference. The 3200 FPS is perfect for the circles. Whereas the 2,900 FPS has some loss. If it's noticeable at 200 meters, I can only imagine a 500 meter shot. So I stick with 3200 for my 300 weatherby. Basically what I am saying is that Velocity at least from the shepard scope standpoint is a must.
Good topic.

Frankly, at least in the East, there's nothing that can't be killed with the 30-30, cast bullet @ 1500 or so. That's mostly true in the West, but more range is desired. (Remember, everything there was killed with the .50 caplock) So, are we really talking about what's needed, or wanted?

Sorry, the above post is unfinished. I was writing at work and got interrupted.

I was gonna add that the exception to the above is dangerous game, and that doesn't need more velocity as much as it needs a bigger hole and a repeating rifle.

The only place I can see velocity being needed is in the long range varmit (sp) shooting.

We can talk all day about special application uses, but generally I agree, more velocity isn't the best answer to most hunting questions. From the 30-30 go to the 30-06 class of cartridges and you've basically covered hunting in America. For truly dangerous game add the 45-70, and you're still barely in the last century in cartridge development.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wayne Smith

Sorry, the above post is unfinished. I was writing at work and got interrupted.

I was gonna add that the exception to the above is dangerous game, and that doesn't need more velocity as much as it needs a bigger hole and a repeating rifle.

The only place I can see velocity being needed is in the long range varmit (sp) shooting.

We can talk all day about special application uses, but generally I agree, more velocity isn't the best answer to most hunting questions. From the 30-30 go to the 30-06 class of cartridges and you've basically covered hunting in America. For truly dangerous game add the 45-70, and you're still barely in the last century in cartridge development.

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yep!

my $0.02 worth
chuck [smilie=f:

I do have to admit that I bought a .300 Win Mag because I felt I "needed" more velocity (range) for some of the hunting situations I encountered going after Colorado Elk.

My '06 just could not handle some of those 350 to 400 yard hillside to hillside cross canyon situations with enough authority to quickly kill an Elk. Getting closer was not a possibility in the conditions we were facing.

A steady rest, and accuracy with the rifle/load, wasn't the issue, so I moved up to the .300 to gain 200 to 250 fps in velocity and 15 grains in bullet weight (165 grain '06 @ ~2,750 to 2,800 to 180 grain @ ~3,000) and I've never been sorry.

Shorter range and smaller game, anything from .257 Roberts up through the various milsurps to '06, including several lever actions, is fine with me. So far I've never tried the 8mm hunting, but may with a good lead boolit design and an accurate load.

I just believe that, within reason, velocity can make a difference.

I belive that in certain situations hiher verlosities do make a differance ! But at what point are we going overboard? Lets face it how many of us own a Conny & can really see what we're pushing our loads to! I've just retired as a PH & was getting around 12mths out of a .223 barrel.These were at moderate loads .Whereas some ofthe younger (an some of the older shooters) were burning out barrels in 6mths & cursing the accuracy of their rifles & ammo! I think at the end of the day it 's a matter of suiting the load to the rifle/game!
I always have used moderate loads & cast bullets in my 45-70 & have downed a lot of Camels with it & none ever complained over the fact that they were hit by a big hunk of lead travilng at 1400fps & not the same at 2000fps!

Dave

i picked up a used chrony for $50 i was really shocked .
most of my loads are pretty slow . my 357 mag load
for my woods gun only went 1100fps . from the thump
on the chest and almost blowing my hat off i thought
it was a lot faster . i don't think my 7mm mauser flyes
fast enough to expand most bullets with the 19" barrel
from the blast i though it had to be flying at least 27_2900
fps but it was only 24-2600 with max charge under a 130
grain speer spbt the flat based bullet are a lot slower and
seem to be really hard . bt wrecks meat . with the flat bases
you can't even see the entrance hole . last year shot big
10 point thought i shot him in the head he had knocked
one of his antlers off. felt the little blood drip on his shoulder and could'nt
feel entrance wound

Good thing Roy Weatherby is dead and cannot hear you. He was the biggest proponant of high velocity. Always thought that a 257 would be a great choice but already had my 30 06. My old friend (the 06) took everything I ever shot not THAT fast either. Just fast enough to reach out there and touch something.

I am probably the second biggest lover of velocity. Speed kills. The faster I make a bullet go the happier I am. Of course, things are a bit different here in the area where I live. Things like a 30/30 are pretty much useless. Open country and lots of it, winds and big game means fast for me anyway. Does not mean it kills any better, just that I like it better LOL

Yepper and that's why I like the 7-08,308 and such for woods or short fields.If im hunting fields around woods and might be able to take a shot at 300 or more,i pick up the 7mag,6.5mag or whatever that I know will hit what im pointing at.Well,all of us miss because the 257mag damn sure didn't kill the 13 point I fired upon last year at 500 something.That was me and the rifle hit a 12 pack pop box shortly after I MISSED.Fast and flat is what I like for certain things.

Elk you do not count. Out west of course you either like or need high velocity. The ranges you shoot I would want all of the help I could get. Now you want to talk about wind doping?

Well John, the faster and heavier the bullet the less the wind bothers it. And out here, wind is a real consideration LOL

Mark you can pick on my 30 30 all you want to. Just leave my 06 alone. It has killed everything I wanted killed for over fifty years. Of course my longest kills on deer have been about 225 to 250 yards shooting from my swamp stand.

I am going to set up 200 and 250 yard targets this spring.

I'm with Mark & Pickle, I like speed, and I think speeds helps get the bullet there faster and flatter. I love the Weatherby slogan: "Weatherby, nothing shoots flatter, hits harder, or is more accurate" :D However, with that being said, I've killed more deer, hogs, and varmints with my Ruger Mark Model 77, Mark II, than with any other rifle I own. I like the fact that its light & easy to carry, but it sucks to shoot it out of the bench. LOL!

j1, those 30-30s are so slow I watched in the scope as the flies took off from the deer and got 2' away before the bullet hit :)

Sorry Dave I`m NOT going to disagree, as a matter of fact I agree........They don`t use the old reliable .303 in the Full Bore for nothing.............

Hey Mark did you ever meet Roy Weatherby? Not joking you once mentioned that you arranged hunts for famous people. He surely was famous, and a famous hunter. Not joking now either. Not too far fetched a guess except that he was far older than you.

Para do you think that I am as dumb as I look? Don't answer that. Of course speed is important thats why you used a Weatherby instead of your 06 in Africa. You were shooting some big animals. :smile:

Afraid I never met the man. I have done a fair amount of Exec. Protection for the hollywood types and political folks but never a gun guy. Tom Selleck was closest to gun guy I ever had been around. I would liked to have met Roy and Elmer but no such luck. Mark

Still flipping back and forth over velocity. It must be good. My 17 HMR kills with almost pure velocity. Those little pills do not weigh much at all. They only weigh 17 grains. They sure do work though.

Hey Hell my 30 30 never met a deer it did not like or kill well. Of course having hunted for many years I limit my range. I like my 30 30 very much. Light and handy. Single shot Contender.

Mark do not feel bad, if you are lucky you may get to meet me. I will teach you all I know about shooting and hunting. Do not get scared it will not take long.

I am really annoyed. I found a post by a fellow named Euan from the Cast Boolits board who hunts in New Zealand. He is now using a Ruger 22 Hornet and kills rabbits by the thousands. Now I posted it saying "Hey v look at this." but I cannot find it. I thought that with your experience with the Ruger Hornet that you should read it too. I will see if I can find it.

If you make an 06 faster you just need premium ammo. I would hate to see a deer shot with a 257 Mag up close. Well you would not need much time to butcher what was left. Maybe then I would change to head shots. :p
This thread caused me to think more than a little. The speed of your rifle should be affected by the range of your shots. My long shots on deer are 250 yards. My 06 is perfect at 2800 to 2900 feet per second. Mark shoots muchfarther so desires or should I say needs more speed. A magnum to him is like my 06 or even my 30 30 to me. I once bought a 300 Weatherby magnum but thought it was overkill and xcessively noisey so sold it. Never had a twinge of longing since. I sold my 356 Winchester and regrtted it almost the next day. Why? Because it suited my style of hunting.

Mark I just found it in "Cast Bullet Talk.". Check it out please.

If you think that velocity does not count look at an old Bruce Lee movie. He was never strong he was fast. Shame that he died so young.

Hey where would my little 17 HMR be without speed? Nowhere thats where. A 22 short weighs more.

Do I want my 06 to go faster for the deer hunting I do? Why? It has killed everything I shot it at, well too.

Speed is completely unimportant if you miss.
Accuracy is number one then comes speed. Adequate bullet weight has got to go in there someplace. My 17 HMR is far from an elk or deer gun in my book.

Tough question. Got a 17 HMR and it kills very well. The bullet only weighs 17 grains also. Kills with speed.

Why do you say that fast does not kill better. Hitting beats missing every time.