When is the best time to clean brass before depriming, resizing or after?

[B]I am a new to reloading and just getting started and wanted to know is it better to tumble and clean brass before you start the process of resizing and knocking out the old primer or after? The brass I am starting with is once shot .308 Hornady Match that is already very clean and in great condition. I used the Lee wax lube that came with my kit and wondered how do you get the wax off after you have deprimed and resized the brass?
Any insight from one of you experienced reloaders wound be appreciated.
Thanks[/B]

1st, welcome.
Next, I vote for cleaning before depriming. That way the flash holes don't get clogged and any dirt is gone before sizing.
Dean

I don't clean my brass. I've been loading for almost 35 years and I never have, and never will. I take very good care of my brass and keep it out of the dirt, and I wipe each case with a rag before lubing/sizing.

I think cleaning cases can hide problems like incipient head seperation. This is a big concern for me as I load for and shoot many older milsurps that often have oversized chambers. I like to watch the brass for signs of trouble, and I can't do that if all the warning signs are erased in the tumbler.

But the biggest reason why I won't do it is because most methods of cleaning (except ultrasonic) put outrageous amounts of particulate lead into the air. It is the single greatest source of lead contamination for most of us, and that includes those who cast bullets. I cannot do that to myself and my kids. The more you know about lead and how it gets into your system, the less you want anything to do with cleaning cases.

The corporations who sell the idea that a shiny case is a happy case are only interested in making money. I don't give a damn how it looks. What I am impressed with is how it performs. Tiny groups and dead deer don't care how the cases look. Leave Martha Stewart out of reloading.

So, the best time to clean them as far as I'm concerned is NEVER.

No tumbler here, but I want to get rid of the grit in the primer pocket... So I wipe the brass after shooting and then resize and/or deprime, before the reloading process.
That's cleaning first :D, but LEE makes a universal decapper if you want the tumbler to do all the cleaning.

About the wax lube, I usually get very quick answers from Emails to LEE:
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi

I like to keep my dies clean and unscratched so I clean as soon as I unload the truck. I bought a tumbler many years ago which makes that job less time consuming and easier. While the brass is being tumbled, I am cleaning the guns and getting them ready to be stored. After cleaning the brass, make sure to remove all the media possible, lube (if needed) and resize, etc.

i mostly neck size so use little [if any ] lube.
but to keep the dust down i tumble after sizing and use a dryer sheet to pick up the fine stuff in the bowl.
i also put a dish cloth over the top of the bowl.

Good question. After depriming first and then tumbling one time I had no trouble remembering which to do first ! Yeah, clean it, then deprime. I really clean mine to keep from hacking up my dies. Load on.

I deprime mine first then I put mine in the vibrator. I use finely ground nut on bad cases but once the fine cob got a little rouge from the nut in there it does good I have had about 5 per load of the nut hanging up and only one hang up in the cob so far. I think its ground about 21 mesh. Even my old military rounds that haven't been used for years come out really nice. Surprised me. For when they do hang up, I use a set of dental picks from harbor frieght to get it free.

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Originally Posted by runfiverun

i mostly neck size so use little [if any ] lube.
but to keep the dust down i tumble after sizing and use a dryer sheet to pick up the fine stuff in the bowl.
i also put a dish cloth over the top of the bowl.

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I'm curious, what is the "bowl" you put a cover over?

I have typically tumbled before decapping; I've tried decapping first to allow the cleaning media to clean the primer pockets but that doesn't work. I have recently purchased an ultrasonic cleaner in an attempt to clean primer pockets after reading that, that works well but I'm not impressed. Does anybody have something they are using in the water that actually cleans the pockets?

Since I reload on a progressive press media getting stuck in a flash hole isn't a concern since I still run the brass through a decapping/resizing die anyway.

I tumble prior to reloading to protect my dies and possibly the chamber of the guns...and they look pretty too.:roll:

I use the little wire brush one at a time.


LOL

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Originally Posted by Mtman314

I use the little wire brush one at a time.


LOL

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What are you using a little wire brush for, cleaning the shells? That must take forever and be very painful to your fingers.

Depending on the condition of the brass, I usually wipe it down and inspect it, lube, resize and trim, then tumble it. I like clean brass, as it helps me to see any defects a lot easier. Martha is welcome here...

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Originally Posted by Bama

Depending on the condition of the brass, I usually wipe it down and inspect it, lube, resize and trim, then tumble it. I like clean brass, as it helps me to see any defects a lot easier. Martha is welcome here...

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I have to agree; I don't know how you could possibly identify a failure or defect in a filthy, corroded shell.

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Originally Posted by swamp

What are you using a little wire brush for, cleaning the shells? That must take forever and be very painful to your fingers.

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for the black in the primer pockets

nah I get the blisters when I cut down 200 30-06 and resize to 8mm and primer them in a day and that was with moleskin and leather gloves. 54 cents a round for 8mm and I had paid 4 cents a round for military 30-06 back in september. I'll see if I can get anymore it's work, but I got time right now to do the work. LOL, the other half says it keeps me outta trouble.

I hear ya on the blisters; I just got done trimming 1,000 brand new Star Line .45 ACP shells. You know, trim, then de-burr inside and out (and a .45 is the max size shell you can de-burr with the tool so fitting it to the shell is a tedious task). It makes you wonder if it's worth it till you're done; then you're glad to have the perfect brass.

I think lee has a 50 cal deburrer for about 10 bucks

That could help; I'll look into that before tackling another thousand.

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Originally Posted by versifier

But the biggest reason why I won't do it is because most methods of cleaning (except ultrasonic) put outrageous amounts of particulate lead into the air. It is the single greatest source of lead contamination for most of us, and that includes those who cast bullets.

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Where does this lead come from?

Do you have any sources to back-up your assertion?

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Originally Posted by Splatter

Where does this lead come from?

Do you have any sources to back-up your assertion?

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I would like to know where he thinks the lead is coming from too; I've never seen a hint of lead in a shell in over 35 years. Now maybe if you melt the lead into the shell in a furnace or something????:-?:-?

You have been seeing it as long as you've been shooting, just not realized what it was you were seeing. Most of it comes from the lead styphanate primer residue. (The same reason it is so hazardous to work in an indoor shooting range.) You see it as a black residue (mixed with that of burned power) in your fired cases. When you tumble the cases, the media knocks it loose and it gets into the air. Using any kind of surficant in with your media can cut down on it significantly, but most just use dry media. When you open the tumbler, separate the media, etc., you release clouds of it into the air, and you breathe it in. When it's on your hands, it's no big deal (As long as you don't eat, drink, or smoke) as you wash it off. Lead oxide is water soluble. That's good for when it's outside your body, bad for when you breathe it in and it gets into your bloodstream. Lead is particularly nasty when it gets into the systems of growing mammals (kids, pets, livestock) where in inhibits the growth of nerve cells. As adults, it builds up in your liver and causes all kinds of problems. Lead vapor is another issue. It is not a problem for handloaders and casters as the vaporization point is way above the range of temperatures you are casting it or its alloys at. It is present in the gasses of indoor ranges, so those who work there are exposed to both forms. That is the reason why so many ranges are requiring lead free ammo. It's not the bullets, though they do produce some airborne dust, it's the primers.

I'm surprised you would even want to shoot a gun. Personally I think you're a bit paranoid.

You do understand that lead like most fear based stories is grossly exaggerated and the amount of lead you must consume to cause harm is such that you would almost have to make a meal out of it. Also there's a tremendous difference between children exposed and adults. I'm not the least bit concerned.

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Originally Posted by swamp

I'm surprised you would even want to shoot a gun. Personally I think you're a bit paranoid.

You do understand that lead like most fear based stories is grossly exaggerated and the amount of lead you must consume to cause harm is such that you would almost have to make a meal out of it. Also there's a tremendous difference between children exposed and adults. I'm not the least bit concerned.

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Paranoid or not I think versifier is correct and that's why I don't like to shoot in any indoor range. Working with lead cast bullets when smelting and casting and shooting in indoor ranges would almost make it a meal when doing it on a consistant basis. It doesn't matter if the lead is coming from the fired projectile or the primers it is in the air in an indoor range and you are breathing it in unless you are wearing some type of particle mask. When smelting and casting you are breathing in some of the fumes also unless wearing a mask no matter the ventilation.
I remember things in the news from years ago about the ill effect of lead. In paint and even in pencils. Isn't that why they stopped using paints that contained lead?

That attitude among other things got him banned from this forum.

Lead vapors are not an issue for bullet casters - the vaporization point is well above 900*F and we never even approach it. Foundry workers, where the temps do reach that level, wear special lead vapor respirators to minimize their exposure. The best way for casters to avoid exposure is to keep their hands washed and not eat, drink, or smoke while casting.

As to indoor ranges, the temp of a burning primer does exceed that level, so it is an issue and a particle filter will help some, but not much. Good ventilation is the most effective way to keep your exposure level low. Like with smoke, the longer it is in the air, some can condense and form larger clumps. These a particle filter can trap along with airborne fragments of matallic lead from the bullets, but the greater amount of lead vapor passes passes right through them unaffected. Your liver can handle a little of it and slowly filter it so you can rid yourself of it over time, but it can take months to do it. Many indoor ranges today have taken steps to minimize exposure by banning the use of lead bullets or requiring "clean ammo" that is loaded with lead free primers that are not available to handloaders. Really good ventilation is enough for occasional shooters. Higher levels occur in colder weather when the ranges have to be heated, and the constant exposure of working in one I don't think is very healthy.

I only neck size and do not tumble cases. I make sure the cases are clean and dry when I picke them up off the ground and abandon any that are scratched or damaged in any way.

I tumble when they come back from the range. I don't mind some residue in the primer pocket - those primers are stout,and the output to the powder charge will not be significantly affected by a small amount of residue. I tumble with either corncob or walnut, and add about a teaspoon of jewelers rouge and a couple of tablespoons of mineral spirits. And I occasionally throw in a used dryer sheet to pick up dust.

Tumble in another container with a little Alemite CD-2, resize, then tumble in the media again to get rid of the lube. This is only for rifle cases. All pistol reloading is done with carbide sizers, so no lube issues there. When the media gets real groaty (and I mean REAL groaty!), dump it and recharge. If a piece of media sticks in the primer hole, I ignore it. That little piece of media does NOT interfere with the primer action.

As for the lead, what Versifier said was right. Wash your hands after handling lead boolits, or after casting, and have no concern for lead ingestion. And the indoor ranges down here have ventilation that keeps the air moving toward the target area for exhaust, taking the lead styphanate with it.

I tumble before resizing as I don't like to run dirty cases through my dies. Clean brass that I shoot myself may just need to be wiped with a towel before sizing but the range pickups I get are always tumble cleaned before sizing.