Printable View
Hi, i am new to this site and have a ? on coal on the 308 h&R survivor model, in the manuals it says max coal is 2.800 and as of right now im up to 3.050 on coal without touching the rifle lands, i went to 3.100 and touched the lands is this normal?? i had to go to 165 grain bullet to do this,and its still only seated about 3/16" any anwers would be helpfull,thanks.:-?
Welcome to the forum rjc.
You are describing a chamber with a very long throat. They usually aren't that long, but it is much easier to deal with than one with a short throat which can limit your bullet selection. With a single shot, there are no feeding/mag issues to deal with, so it doesn't really make a lot of difference how long you load it as long as the bullet is sufficiently supported by the case neck and you are not shooting really hot loads. Personally though, I would be working up my loads at the SAAMI MAX OAL of 2.800. After I found the rifle's favorite combination of powder and bullet, then I would experiment with length to see if it makes any difference or not.
Don't automatically assume that best accuracy always happens when the bullet is almost touching the lands - sometimes it does, but often it does not. I think Roy Weatherby blew that myth all to hell. The chambers he designed have extremely long throats to keep pressures as low as possible while squeezing the maximum velocity, but accuracy is not appreciably affected by the distance the bullet has to jump before contacting the lands. With many rifles it makes no difference at all, with others it makes a lot of difference, but I think it's always best to work up the load first before exploring the possibilities. Longer OAL does give you more powder capacity, but break actions are not strong enough to make use of the higher pressures involved in taking advantage of it. Find out by experimenting the OAL your rifle actually prefers with it's best loads and go with it regardless of how near or far you end up.
thanks, versifier. what about shallow seating depth is there a min depth that may cause problems of some sort ,other than bullets falling out or pushing in.and if it does need a long coal could a bullet sealing compound be used.
Generally, I don't like the base of the bullet below the neck of the case if I can help it, but how short the round can be is more a function of bullet length. If you are pushing max loads, it is never a good idea to decrease powder capacity as it will raise the chamber pressure. Most every bullet manufacturer has a suggested OAL for each of its bullets and that is where I like to start.
If you do not have enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place all by itself you are not going to see much in the way of accuracy. I see no advantage to sealing (unless you are hunting in a monsoon) if you have to resort to it to hold the bullet in place you are wasting your time. When you are seating way out there, you do need to be extra careful about concentricity so that the bullet enters the lands as parellel as humanly possible. This usually isn't an issue when most of the bullet's bearing surface is within the case neck, but the less support the bullet has in the case, the more likely it will be out of proper alignment. One of the advantages of suggested OAL is that it minimizes the potential problem.
How are your group sizes varying as you move out? Or, were you putting the cart before the horse and choosing an OAL before you worked up loads?
I started a little below the max coal ,went to about .025 over the coal, and i thought maybe there might be something wrong and i was checking where the bullets touched the lands over and over to make sure the bullets werent even comming close to reaching, they wasnt.with the 150 sbt grain bullets it would not have even been in the neck of the case, so i switched to the 165 grain nosler ballistic tip, sanded the inside of a sized case run it in the chamber closed the action and pushed the bullet into the case and it measured 3.070 pused it in the case another .025 smoked the bullet and tryed it again noting hit and the action worked liked it didnt have a round in the chamber, and i have not fired these loaded rounds yet, the 150 sbt grouped about 2" at 100 yards[ not good] even for me ,and that was around the recomended coal of 2.800. i called H&R and they said yes they do have long throats on that model,it just looks realy weird the bullet stickig out that far, it reminds me of how the M-60 bullets are loaded or at least the ones ive been around.have you seen this situation before?
Yes I have, but again, you don't know what you've got until you've done a bunch of experimenting. You may have an excellent rifle that will show its potential in testing. H&R is not known for the best quality control in the industry, but the barrels they use have a very good reputation for accuracy. Many buy them as spares or lenders and have no complaints. Others shoot them often with no problems at all. I myself haven't had much luck seeing them in heavy use, and to me that says inconsistant quality. Each one I think is a gamble - sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. (I have seen one .30-30 shoot loose in the first 100 rounds and we recycled the barrel, threaded and fit it to a bolt action that is extremely accurate, and I know of a .223 that is up to thousands of rounds and still tight.) Nobody seems to be neutral about them, they're either loved or hated. They are a very good deal, but you get what you pay for.
Personally my choice in single shots are T/C Contenders and Encores. I shoot a LOT, and my favorite Contender frame has well over 10,000 rounds fired in dozens of different pistol and carbine barrels over the thirty years I've had it. T/C's have their problems, too, but overall I think they are much better made and more reliable performers over time.
Versifier, thanks for all the info.
Also, you may want to try seating the bullet to cartridge specs. then use a taper crimp on the round. The whole idea of seating the bullet out where it is touching the lands is to give the powder charge time to develop pressure for a complete or better burn. I have found the crimp does the same thing in my shooting irons. And a lot less fiddling and measuring. Worth a try.
Lee offers a great crimping die.
would it not cause a higher pressure to crimp a bullet without a crimp ring? new to this so im learning as i go.
No, it would not cause a higher pressure, but depending on the kind of crimp you use it might not work as well as you might wish. Roll and taper crimps are not as effective with non-cannelured bullets. Roll crimps can distort the bullets when over applied and taper crimps don't work well with jacketed rifle bullets generally, being much more effective with auto pistol cases to increase their neck tension enough to prevent telescoping during feeding. IMO, the best crimp to use with a regular rifle bullet is a Lee Factory Crimp Die that uses a collet, if and when it's needed.
The rounds that NEED a crimp for positive ignition are revolver cases and reduced cast bullet rifle loads. Others need some kind of crimp to prevent feeding issues (telescoping) - some levers, pumps, semi's - or to prevent the bullets backing out under high recoil - revolver and magnum rifle cartridges.
Generally though, if you can get away with not crimping then it's easier to skip the extra step....
But.... sometimes accuracy will improve by crimping a round that does not necessarily require it. Why? I don't know, but it is an observable fact. Normally ammo for a single shot doesn't need to be crimped, but certain of my Contender loads will shoot noticably smaller groups if I crimp them, with others it makes no difference, and with some the groups open up. I have never found a way to predict it, but I will usually crimp a few to check after I finish working up the load just to see what happens. I get a pleasant surprise often enough that it's worth the effort. (And a little note in my loading log when crimping HURTS the accuracy of a certain load is a good bit of data to know about a particular barrel.) Likewise with lighter recoiling bolt action loads. I have the FC dies anyway in most rifle chamberings for all the cast loads I test, so it's no big deal to run a few jacketed rounds through them to check. Every gun and every load is different and only by doing the actual experiment can you really know what the real world effect will be.
verisier is absolutley correct..I should have clearer, sorry. Reloading is testing and trying different loads and bullets, for myself that is the the reason I reload and cast.
thanks everybody your input is helping me a lot, just to update i loaded some 165 gr ballistic tips in the 308 last week and went and burned a few saturday the coal was 3.035 and groups have went down to 1" at 100yds getting better but the strange thing is powder charge doesnt seem to affect the groups any i loaded 44gr r-15,45gr r-15 ,46gr and stoped at 47gr just under max charge,is this typical or realy strange?
My Sierra Manual lists 34.0 as a MAX load for RE7 with a 165 bullet. I believe you are way up in the danger zone. STOP.
Many manuals do not even bother to list the combination. RE7 does not like that combination and maxes out at very low velocity. Switch to RE15 or an IMR powder with 165 and heavier bullets. I am surprised you are not seeing blown or cratered primers as you are shooting at or above proof level. Something is very not right here. Where did you find those loads?