38-55 cal. Loading Question

I own a 1894 Winchester 38-55 cal. .380 bore 26" Oct. Barrel made in 1904.
I shoot a 280 gr. gas checked cast bullet. The load is 21 grs of 5744 powder.
The load is very, accurate in this gun. 1" groups at 50 yds open sights. 1.5" groups at 100 yrs. The bore is perfect, the problem I am having is this load leaves alot of unburned powder in the barrel. Would using a magnum primer help? Or maybe increasing the load 4 or 5 grains? Any suggestion I will appreciate. Merry Christmas to all.
The Senator

hola amigo ! and welcome to the forum !
i hear alot about that powder leaving unburnt kernels , in theory there's a correct pressure where it doesnt do this , yet i'm also not sure where max load is for this combo , if you're below max load i would try working your way up slowly to max ( or until the problem abates if still below max ) you could also try trail boss powder or starting small again and adding a wad ( tuft of dacron ) i have a couple of low velocity loads using unique ( in different calibers ) that are dirty as heck but also accurate , if i bump up the load it cleans up a bit but isnt quite as accurate so i did a trade off - in favor of the accuracy

i'd try the dacron fiirst.
there are some drawbacks to using it but there are also lots of benefits.
you will need to reduce the load and work back up with the filler as it is esentially making the case a bit smaller.
if you do use the filler you need to make sure that it touches both the powder and the base of your boolit with some slight compression.
it helps with ignition consistency, will usually lower your velocity spread, and is fairly easy to get into the straightwalled case.

Senator
I like the 5744 for the 45-70 and up and also used it in the entire Win 94 family 25-35 to 38-55and I have never got it to burn out completely clean. I haven't used dacron but have used COW and still have unburn't powder.
To be honest about it I can't remember off the top of my head with out looking at my reloading sheets if I have ever used a magnum primer!
I kind of ignore the left overs and just shoot.
As you stated it is a very accurate powder and easy to work up a load with.

Good Luck Ken.

Thank you to all who took the time to answer my questions. I will start working up the load a grain at a time and see what happens. Don't know a thing about the dacron, how does that work???
Merry Christmas
The Senator
PS- Kodiak1, years ago I hunted moose at Calling Lake, Alberta. Nice country.

Senator
Calling lake is a tad North and East of Me.
I am North and West of Red Deer.

Let us know if that powder cleans up for you.
I have considered using a grain or 2 of a hotter powder (duplex load) to get it to clean up.

Ken.

"if you do use the filler you need to make sure that it touches both the powder and the base of your boolit with some slight compression."

I don't thenk that is necessarily correct. Nomally, I use a square piece of Dacron cut to fit the cartridge. For example, in the 45-70 it would be 1.2"x1/2?x1/2" slightly tamped gainst the powder to hold it against the primer. The size would probably work just fine in a 38-55.
The easiest way to use Dacron us go to the fabric section of Walmart and buy some polyester batting used to make quilts and baby blankets. Probably the 1/2" size is the most useful for most cartridges. I use the dimensions mentioned abovet for jus about everything I shoot cast in from the 30-30 light loads (plinkers) to the .375 H&H and it works just fine. I finally quit looking for the expelled dacron in front of the gun. I figure it must have been totally consumed upon firing the round.

"I haven't used dacron but have used COW and still have unburn't powder."

I dropped the use of COW (Cream of Wheat) as a filler in my 45-70 after I had a misfire. When I got home, I pulled the bullet and the COW was packed so tight that I had to use a small screwdriver to dig it out. Pressure was affected when I dropped COW and went to the Dacron as velocity dropped almost 100 FPS due to the change. Accuracy was unaffected.
If pressure was changed enough to reflect almmot 100 FPS less without the COW, I have to wonder just what pressures would be like with COW packed tight in a bottleneck case?

Another filler that works well and is definitely consumed upon firing is Kapok. With a little practice it's not too hard to pluck off a one grain tuft and tamp it down on the powder. Kapok BTW is totally organic but can affect people who might be allergic to it. I used it for years in the 30-06 cast loads I was shooting. I use Dacron now due to it's being more convenient to use but still have a good supply of Kapok.
Now if I could only find a decent supply of wheel weights somewhere. My supply is running low.
Paul B.

paul.
i am going to stand behind the touching both statement, as i believe that not doing so is where ringed chambers come from when using a filler.
Lamar.

Will hit the reloading one day next week. I have a honey-do list about 1/2 mile long. Its a good thing she is good lookin!!!!!! Thanks to all who have replied. Have a safe and sane New Year!! Please keep in touch Kodiak1, you can reach me at
jerry.kazee@yahoo.com
The Senator

Quote:

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Originally Posted by runfiverun

paul.
i am going to stand behind the touching both statement, as i believe that not doing so is where ringed chambers come from when using a filler.
Lamar.

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Well, I've been loading and shooting cast bullet since 1954 and I haven't ringed a chamber yet. I firmly believe that Kapok and dacron are completely consumed on firing as I have never found and of either in front of the gun after shooting. Believe me, I have looked
I did ruin a barrel one time on a 45-70. I got the bright idea that over powder wads for a .410 shotgun might work. I seated ne against the powder and shot a full box set up that way. Accuracy was great and it wasn't until I got home and was cleaning the gun that I found he barrel ringed in two places. It didn't hurt the accuracy at all which was a surprise. I let a friend hve the rifle cheap because of he barel and he's been shooting it that way for almost a year and a half now. That is the only time I ever had a problem witha filler. Just an experment that did not work out.
Until wheel weight became difficult to get I was shooting an average of 100 to 200 rounds a week from my 30-30, .308 Win. and 30-06. With metal gettig almost impossible to find thanks to our beloved governemt and the EPA, no one here will sell me any, it's more like 50 to 100 rounds a month. A pox on them all.
Methinks that 57 years of shooting cast with various fillers without any problems with ringed chambers has to say something. Luck? That would have to be an awful lot of luck. Other than that ringed barrel which I'm still trying to figure out, I have never had a problem.
Do I have a theory? Yes I do. I'm thinking that if the kapok, Dacron or whatever is not snug against the oowder and there is an air space between the powder and filler and the air space between the filler and the bullet, then maybe the filler slams against the bullet which acts as a bore obstruction thus ringing the chamber. That is what I think. Not saying I'm right.
On the ringed barrel, I think one or two of those over powder wads tipped on it's way down the barel and stuck. The next shot had the bullet hitting that stuck wad momentarily slowing the bullet and allowing the pressure to rise causing the ring. Again, that's what I'm thinking.
Paul B.

In reading RUNFIVERUN's reply,, I got to thinking about how powder burns. In an '06 case filled with slow burning powder, the burn starts at the back and pushes powder, bullet and all down the barrel. Raw powder is pushing the bullet well into the bore. All is well and good. The powder is burning at a progressive rate and the pretty tubular shape has been crushed into a solid (40-50,000 PSI).

Now take a small charge and put it into a straight case. The powder is only half way up the side of the case and the primer flash goes down and lights all of the surface at once and burns straight down quickly - more of a detonation. (There have been studies of having all of the powder at the rear as opposed to all at the front, but I have not heard of the results.) "Faster" powders were designed to burn in open cases and I expect might burn even slower under these conditions than their big brothers.

As for my fillers, I stick with something more substantial, like fine corn meal and enjoy the tortilla smell.

Potato John