Out with the old, in with the new.....er new to me

I found someone who wants to trade me a mum-less Japanese m38 Arisaka for my worthless "sporterized" Carcano. He can't find ammo for it anywhere. I have 6.5jap dies and 100 brand new Prvi brass cases on the way and the Arisaka is a true 6.5. He won't shoot the Carcano more than to check out that it works and feeds (it does), he just wants to have a dirt cheap emergency deer rifle he can actually shoot and keep a few boxes of ammo for if he's going to have it. He shoots so seldom he'll figure the poor accuracy is him and it will live in his safe happily ever after.

I have no problem at all with another old 6.5 to play with. Don't know yet if it's a rifle or a carbine. Don't really care either way. I'll post some pics when I pick it up. :mrgreen:

I love being able to load and shoot these obsolescent cartridges in their classic mil rifles. And it's even better when I can cast bullets for them, too. I have two moulds, 140gr and 170gr, that will work with this one.

Well, I got rid of the Carcano.

It's not a m38, it's a m99 in 7.7 and the bore looks really good. Older one, very well made, not like the crudely machined and barely finished late wartime slave labor rifle my Dad picked up after the Battle of Okinawa.

But I still want a little 6.5 m38 and now I've got a good shooter to play with until I find one to trade it for.

I already have dies, brass, and a mould for the m99 in the mean time, and unlike the m38 ammo for it is still readily available from several manufacturers, as are components (takes the same .311 jacketed/.314 cast bullets as the .303Brit and 7.5ArgMauser), so it will be easy enough to sell or trade this one.

I've been loading the 7.7Arisaka round for thirty years. I have a cast load at about 1700-1800fps that prints 2-3" rested 100yd groups and rings an 8" gong at that range offhand without a miss. The only thing you need to watch out for is really light cast loads below 12- or 1300fps that don't reach high enough pressure to properly obturate the brass to the chamber. Then the difference between a Mauser and a "Mauser derivative" becomes clear when the gas that escapes around the case follows the bolt raceways and sprays both cheeks with burning powder/hot gas. Good thing I always wear eye protection. No problems when you get up into the bullet's working range of 1500-2200fps though. I ladder tested the Lee bullet with three different powders and both 3031 and RL7 tightened up at around the same estimated velocity to the same size groups and POI. I found a box with 40rds of unfired tests too I ought to finish and record. I should chrono them out of Dad's rifle now that I've got a new tripod to hold the chrono. Then the testing will be complete and I can load up all the brass I have with its favorite load.

Like I need another flinking 7.7 rifle to test right now. I need to sell this new one before I even think about shooting it and get the m38 I want, by which time I will have worked up a nice load for the Swede and actually have time to work on m38 load development. :mrgreen:

Anybody got a m38 Arisaka in decent shape available locally for cheap?
I have a local FFL it can be shipped to.
I have to tour the local shops, too, you never know.

Now that the 6.5 brass and dies are on the way I'm committed. Or I ought be committed.

A carbine will make a nice loaner deer rifle, though. Something to keep in mind if I ever need to provide forty friends with obsolescent antique milsurps to go deer hunting.....

I have a line on an m38. We'll see if it works out.

Since I had the two 99's side by side I figured I'd break them down and compare the the prewar with the late war models.

The one my Dad brought back from Okinawa is the late war model. It is crude. Really crude. There is no flower pattern cut into the back of the safety disk, in fact you can see the hammer forging marks where the two halves of the part were joined and just left without any grinding or further work before an acid dip and blueing. The machining looks like the used a demented beaver with carbide teeth to finish it. The stock was rough shaped but never brought down to the smoothed and properly sanded older one. It is bulky and chunky and all the metal parts are deeply set into it. I bet there is at least an extra pound of weight in the unfinished stock. Inside it was as crudely finished, too, but all the parts work and the bolt parts (not the bolts themselves) were interchangeable between the two. The trigger is heavy at about 6-7# but it is crisp and smooth and the only thing I've ever done to it is clean the surfaces of dirt and grit. Despite how it looks it shoots better than 80% of the milsurps I have owned over the years. Plus it's got an intact mum on it and all matching numbers including the bayonet.

The new one reminds me of my older Mauser. This one is pre- or maybe very early war. It was made by a rifle smith. The metalwork is smoothed and adequately polished, the blueing worn in places but you can see the proper prep was done so it took well. The sides of the firing pin were finished and polished. The stock looks like a proper mil stock, the curves all properly sanded, the wood is proud on all the inletted metal it was cleanly fit then nicely and consistently finished. It took me more time to get the old grease out of the firing pin spring (unlike other Mausers and their variants, it is internal, not external) than it did to clean the bore. It cleaned up beautifully with some minor brushing and a few patches. Nothing like the days of scrubbing and electronic cleaning like some I remember. The trigger is so like the other rifle that I can't tell the difference and with all that gunk out of the bolt it acts like any well cared for rifle. This one has the ground-off mum of a surrendered rifle, so it's worth nada compared to the other and is all in all a much nicer rifle and ought to make a good shooter, even a loaner deer rifle with the peep battle sights (first Mauser variant I know with peep sights, none of the German rifles ever had them, just v notches). Now I'm wondering how accurate it is compared to the other......

I think I'm going to have to shoot it, but it will be a couple of weeks until I can get back to the range. :mrgreen: What do you think?

I am going to look at a model 38 tomorrow morning. He said "someone who knew what he was doing put a sporter stock on it", and that the metal was all in very good condition. We shall see. He doesn't want much for it as he can't get any ammo for it and he knows there's no collector value restocked....... :mrgreen:

Go VERS, GO get 'em!

Not a bad score! He had what he said he had. It has seen both a good gunsmith and Bubba. A real smith put a nice Fanjen walnut stock on it with an ebony forend and did a first class glass bedding job. It was inlet for a a side mount scope base and d&t'd on the left side but that base is long gone. He cut the barrel to 22", recrowned it beautifully, silver soldered on a high-end front sight base with a dovetail for interchanging and set a nice thin front post with a brass bead in it. This was someone's deer rifle and it was a good one. Then at some point down the road the mil rear sight broke and Bubba removed the top half of it and screwed on off-center a Williams base with an adjustable buckhorn wide flat "u" notch about 5x the width of the front post without bothering to do anything about the unblued bare metal under where the original sight. Cold blue will fix that. I can get a new insert that will work with the front sight if I don't already have one in my parts stash. I seem to remember I have a ghost ring aperture waiting for the right rifle if I can find it. It's for a WGRS sight, but I think the dovetail is the same size and the only difference between them is the open notch or peep sights they come with. I can work around the off-center base long enough to find out how well it shoots and replace it if the rifle is accurate enough to be interesting.

Turned out the guy I bought it from was looking for a good type 99 for a shooter. Good thing I didn't shoot it, the bore was squeaky clean and when he put a light down it and tried the trigger he just had to have it and started counting out the bills I'd just paid him and handed them back to me. I made out quite well I think.

I have to finish prepping the new brass and get some Sierras loaded. We'll be testing this one side by side with the Swede I guess! :mrgreen: Photos soon.

Way to go Vers
Keep us posted

KD and the rest, all my manuals are still in storage.

Could you please help me once again?

I have HDY's 6.5x50 Jap data for 120 & 140 gr bullets for H335 & BL-C2 and some of each on hand,

BUT,

I would really like more 140gr data from other sources like Sierra, Nosler, Speer, Lee, Lyman, etc. for Varget, these IMR powders: 3031, 4064, 4895, and these Alliant powders: RL 7 & 15, all powders I stock that can be safely reduced in loads for the same weight cast bullet.

Here she is:
Attachment 358Attachment 359

Quote:

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Originally Posted by versifier

KD and the rest, all my manuals are still in storage.

Could you please help me once again?

I have HDY's 6.5x50 Jap data for 120 & 140 gr bullets for H335 & BL-C2 and some of each on hand,

BUT,

I would really like more 140gr data from other sources like Sierra, Nosler, Speer, Lee, Lyman, etc. for Varget, these IMR powders: 3031, 4064, 4895, and these Alliant powders: RL 7 & 15, all powders I stock that can be safely reduced in loads for the same weight cast bullet.

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Versifier, you sure this is 6.5X50 ? Lyman 49th has nothing nor does Lee and He has a lot more 6.5's listed.
You want lead bullet data or jacketed?

Whatever you find, thanks. Data for it is not easy to find these days, so the more the better from as many different sources as possible is the order of the day I think.

Sierra emailed me a PDF of their 6.5x50 data. I got both NRA and Hdy data on line.

Looking at Sierra's data and some from NRA's Handloading which pretty much agree, I have doubts about what Hornady published and would like some other sources for comparison. The charge weights vs. measured velocities are very different for the same powders, and considering almost identical components and test rifles in all three tests I want do do some more checking. I know it's not at all unusual to see differences in published data from different sources, some of which are possibly no longer valid due to powder formulation changes over time, so the more data the better. Almost 40 years of handloading has taught me to trust Sierra's numbers, and in all truth I have never been a big fan of anything Hornady, but I'd like to see what some other sources have to say.

Other names for the round are the 6.5 Jap and the 6.5 Arisaka.

This is what I have so far:
From Accurate powder it goes like this:
Bullet ...........................Start ......Start .....Max ...Max ........Max ......COL ......Comp.
Weight ...Bullet .Bullet ..Load ......Velocity .Load ..Velocity ..Pressure .............Load
(Grains) .Make .Type ...(Grains) ..(FPS) ...(Grains) .(FPS) .(PSI) .....(Inches) ..C



6.5 X 50MM ARISAKA
Barrel: 24” ¦ Twist: 1-10” ¦ Primer: WIN WLR ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.264”
Case: NORMA ¦ Max Case Length: 2.008” ¦ Trim Length: 1.998”
ACCURATE 2495
85 SIERRA HP 32.3(Grains) 2,524(FPS) 34.0(Grains) 2,685(FPS) 28,900 2.625
100 HDY SP 31.4(Grains) 2,470(FPS) 33.0(Grains) 2,628(FPS) 34,900 2.700
129 HDY SP 28.5(Grains) 2,138(FPS) 30.0(Grains) 2,274(FPS) 37,700 2.770
140 SIERRA SBT GK 26.6(Grains) 2,035(FPS) 28.0(Grains) 2,165(FPS) 35,900 2.850
160 HDY RN 28.5(Grains) 1,983(FPS) 30.0(Grains) 2,110(FPS) 38,700 2.795
ACCURATE 2700
85 SIERRA HP 34.2(Grains) 2,557(FPS) 36.0(Grains) 2,720(FPS) 33,600 2.625
100 HDY SP 33.3(Grains) 2,421(FPS) 35.0(Grains) 2,576(FPS) 36,300 2.700
129 HDY SP 31.4(Grains) 2,131(FPS) 33.0(Grains) 2,267(FPS) 38,100 2.770
140 SIERRA SBT GK 30.4(Grains) 2,045(FPS) 32.0(Grains) 2,176(FPS) 36,800 2.850
160 HDY RN .30.4(Grains) 1,938(FPS) 32.0(Grains) 2,062(FPS) 37,800 2.795
ACCURATE 4350
85 SIERRA HP 36.0(Grains) 2,347(FPS) 40.0(Grains) 2,667(FPS) 31,300 2.625 C
100 HDY SP 35.1(Grains) 2,311(FPS) 39.0(Grains) 2,626(FPS) 37,200 2.700 C
129 HDY SP 32.4(Grains) 2,062(FPS) 36.0(Grains) 2,343(FPS) 37,800 2.770
140 SIERRA SBT GK 31.5(Grains) 1,980(FPS) 35.0(Grains) 2,250(FPS) 36,300 2.850
160 HDY RN 30.6(Grains) 1,865(FPS) 34.0(Grains) 2,119(FPS) 35,900 2.795

Thank You! I only have some 2520, but my local shop stocks Accurate powders. That gives me a list of ten now. I decided to start with my old friend 3031 and brand new brass. I guess I am a creature of habit. Hopefully I will get a chance to shoot her this evening for the first time. I also have the first Varget tests and the same 140GK for the Swede with her new glass if I have time. Which rifle will prove more accurate do you think?

Seems I need a firing pin spring, hits too light to set off the primers.

Versifier, I would not have any idea how to make sure the firing pin channel was clean/clean it other than a bunch of cleaner down in there several times shake it out and then a good light lube. Not saying it isn't clean but sometimes that is the culprit.

Yeah, first thing I thought of. :mrgreen: I have brushed out the inside of the bolt thoroughly and relubed it, so it isn't internal bolt guck. The spring is in three pieces. That's a good indicator of what's wrong if I am correct. As soon as I double check that it will fire properly with the spring from my type 99 I'll order a new one from Wolfe.

Aside from this hopefully minor issue, the Arisaka bolt is in my opinion a real improvement to the 95/96/98 Mauser designs. The spring is inside the firing pin for an extra layer of protection and the design is simplified so that the bolt can be disassembled in seconds without tools. Anyone who has chased springs and other assorted parts across the room only to lose them in the carpet can really appreciate this. The safety engages and disengages silently too.

I have solved it. The three spring segments are of slightly larger diameter than the original and the firing pin channel has a slight taper near the front end. The spring wouldn't go all the way down when released and just let the pin travel the last inch by momentum, which wasn't enough to ignite the primer. I put in the spring from Dad's 99 and it now goes bang every time. It recoils like an AR, a real pussycat to shoot.

The 3031/140GK starting load shot a 2" 100yd group, the next two increments opened up a bit, but I am tickled pink with a 2" load from a WWII milsurp. I'll try two more powders out of curiosity to see if I can get some more velocity.

I think I'm going to like this rifle a lot. It's well worth putting a decent sight on it and getting a new spring & spare. Just as soon as I finish the Mannlicher m95 stock and get that shooting again. In the mean time I have a better insert for the rear sight that Bubba put on it cockeyed.