6/5 x 55 problem

[Mike in tx]

1. Factory ammo (Win and PPV) shot well in the Swede.
2. FL sized Need some muscle here.
3. Dummy round in Win chambers well Slight crush.
4. Dummy round in PPV will not chamber
5. Measured PPV, Win cases and compared to Win factory rounds. All within specs. Used mic and caliper.
6. No problem chambering and shooting PPV factory loads
7. Length of case, shoulder, web all within specs.
8. COL less than factory. I was trying to reach the lands. Never reached that. Kept reducing length.
9. Mic'd bullets Within specs. .264
10 Used a shorter shell holder. No change.
11 Could the die be out of spec. New Lee dies.
What is going on?

Thanks
Mike

[Mike in tx]

I thought that I had shot all of the PPV up but found a few factory loads. Shoulders look to be the same but there was case stretching of the PPV of 0.007 inch. The Win factory and 1X are within 0.001. I will try the dummies after I trim them back. Still within the specs per Lyman.

[Mike in tx]

Trimmed the cases to 2.164. Tried 2 dummies. Bolt closed with a crush fit but was hard to lift. No scratches or other marks on the cases.

[versifier]

IMO a dummy round should chamber cleanly just like a GO gage, no slight crush fit as I would prefer for loaded rounds, but I only use dummies when I load different bullets to reset my seating die to switch back and forth between them. I have them set up that way for 120PH and 140GK for my daughter's 6.5. If I were using them to prove an action though they would be set up exactly the same as my loaded rounds with that same slight crush fit. All depends on their intended purpose.

One thing I'm not clear on. Did you mean that after one firing then full length sizing the Prvi case grew .007"? I trust your measurements, but that DOES seem a bit excessive to me. :mrgreen: It may even hold the key to solving the puzzle.

I'm assuming both brands of brass get the exact same treatment, yes? Let's back up to specifics of your case prep. Are you using dry mica lube on the necks to minimize stretching from the expander ball? Is there a squeaking sound as the expander ball pulls through the case neck? Does the operation require more force to withdraw the case from the die (or are you using the new RCBS with enough mechanical advantage to resize a 40mm Bofors shell and can't tell)? What kind of resizing lube are you using on the body of the case? It may be that the slightly different brass alloys of each brand have slightly different friction coefficients and react differently to the steel of the neck expander. One may need the necks lubed and the other brand may not.

One would think that if the die were out of spec then the Win cases would have the same problem.

Do both flavors of your fired brass rechamber easily before resizing? Do you have a collet neck sizer? I would think you ought to have some sort of neck sizer for a bolt action regardless if it's conventional, collet, or bushing, just for increased brass life if nothing else.

All else being equal, I suspect the brass, sounds like it might have been overly annealed and is a tad bit too soft in the neck/shoulder allowing the expander ball to pull and stretch it like taffy. If it is an annealing issue, neck sizing and a few reloads will work harden it back to where it should be.

I usually have great results and good case longevity with Prvi brass and it is often cheaper to buy it loaded than to buy unloaded brass by other makers from here in the USA. BUT the first and only time (last month) I bought a bag of 100 brand new unloaded Prvi cases (6.5jap) half of them had a rim too thick to fit my shell holder. I have ended up with at least one bad batch of brass from every manufacturer over the years, I guess everyone had a bad day once in a while. I've had no problems at all with the 5 boxes (loaded) I bought to use in my Swede and some are on their 5th loading (still collet neck sizing and haven't needed to trim them yet).

And I doubt you're ever going to get a 140gr bullet close to the lands with a mil m96. In fact I can seat them so far out in mine that they're too long to fit in the magazine, barely held in the neck, and they still don't reach. I'm thinking long throat = no pressure spikes aka Weatherby. I doubt I could get a 160gr spitzer bullet near the lands even if I could find some to try. Maybe a heavy RN if such a bullet could be had affordably.

[Mike in tx]

Thanks for answering. Here goes.
1. I checked the fired cases against the PPV factory rounds and they were the same length.
2. Resized cases stretched .007
3. Same treatment for both brands and used Unique(Imperial) wax for resizing.
4. Did not notice any squeaking from the expander ball but was not listening for it specifically.
5. More force was required to resize than any other cartridge that I reload; a lot more force.
6. I only have PPV that have not been resized and they slip in like greased bacon.
7. Last night I thought of ordering a collet die and will be doing so.
8. I am looking for a 160 grn mould. I only looked quickly but can not find one that is reasonable.
Again, thanks

Mike

[versifier]

Everyone on the Swede forum says don't try to push a cast bullet faster than 1500fps or so. I have not begun testing cast in mine yet so I don't know. Many of them are just going for target loads with handgun powders though. I have 140 & 170gr moulds that I've been using with a 6.5M/S. http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?49-Swedish-Military-Firearms-Forum
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?osCsid=v8nfhubpkgcg1ofhv82ng6ac03

#5 is a red flag. Not sure why but that bothers me as it is an unexplained anomaly. Were the WW cases hard to resize also?

I suspect that a slightly oversize chamber, normal for a milsurp, might be confusing the issue too.

Did ALL the Prvi cases stretch .007 or was there variation among them (i.e. some with minimal stretch, some moderate, some excessive)? I am still thinking this is a brass/annealing issue of neck/shoulders too soft.

[versifier]

I will ask Sam over on the Facebook RLB for his opinion.

[versifier]

Sam asks that you post pics of both fired brass and FL sized brass. I'm thinking he's thinking what I'm thinking.

[Mike in tx]

I sent pixs by phone. Hope they got through in good shape. Now, I trimmed the cases back to 2.162 +-0.001. Set a dummy round in trimmed and untrimmed case. The trimmed case now goes into the chamber well and the untrimmed case has the same problem. When I resized a case this AM it was 2.162; post resizing it was 2.170. Is it the expander ball doing this? Seems likely to me but I am not sure. Could this be the problem or do I have a short chamber. The specs that I have indicate a case length of 2.165. Go gauge goes in OK and No Go will not. I bought this to rebarrel but the barrel looks good and shoots well and I am happy with it as well as cheap.

BTW the case that I resized this AM sized easily. What gives?

[versifier]

I don't own a smart phone. (In fact, I don't use a cell phone except in dire emergencies.) :mrgreen: You can post them here or there, or I will message you my email and you can them to me that way.

[Mike in tx]

I think the riddle is solved. We will find out soon.

[Mike in tx]

Thank you Vers for your help. Problem solved

[versifier]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. :mrgreen: Tell us the rest of the story so folks can learn from it.

This thread has been and will be a good chance for newby's to pick up some useful information, so I'm going to hijack you for a minute and build on that.

Lee FL rifle sizers have long tapered expanders that for me have worked better than most. But I still clean the die each time before and after and lube bottle necks for FL sizing with either mica or Imperial if I can find a qtip when I need one. That high pitched squeak when you pull the case over the expander ball sets my teeth on edge and I know what it's doing to the case's neck and shoulder when I hear it.

You can order custom expanders in slightly larger or smaller sizes from Lee for their FL sizers and custom mandrels for their collet dies, too. I have a bunch of their custom collet and factory crimp dies that I am very pleased with. (And every one of them came to me full of coolant residue and chips and assorted whatever and got a complete disassembly, cleaning, inspection, lubing, and reassembly that every die set I buy gets no matter who made it.) You can't get a better deal on custom dies anywhere short of making them yourself.

Aimless rambling:
My 6.5 Swede collet die also works for 6.5M/S and 6.5Jap. (Doesn't get more than the top third of the Jap's neck but it holds them tight enough for decent groups.)
Maybe a bushing die is more versatile, but I didn't have one long enough to really see what one could do.
30+ years ago I sold one I'd just bought in 6mm with a very accurate scoped .243 that someone with a very broken rifle three days before opening day just had to have right then and there and offered me about three times what I had in it and twice what it was worth in cash if I threw in the box of 50 handloads and the dies & shell holder I loaded them with (which I had with me to show a friend that day). I had already tried several Lee collet dies by then though and mostly because I am a tightfisted old Yankee I never got around to trying another bushing die. The rifle was a custom m700 and the price was right. On the bench it was a good performer, but it just didn't fit me, the balance was off for offhand shooting and the 3-9 barbell on it was too powerful for the puckerbrush we have to hunt in up this way so I had already decided to find it a new home. I took the cash and waited until two weeks after deer season when I had my pick of rifles and shotguns at the pawn shop. I still have the 20ga870 and the m95 Mauser from that fall but sold off the four other rifles that were really good deals the next summer and fall before deer season. You'd think with all the different .30cals I cast for and now all these 6.5's I'd have tried them again. Maybe I will.

[Mike in tx]

Vers, you can hijack any thread of mine. I respect your knowledge and value your friendship.

[Mike in tx]

The collet die is in my hands. I also got some 140 and 160 jacketed bullets and the 170 soupcan came in. Time for fun. As an aside, I am almost done with the stock work that has been been begging to be done for 3 years.