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Sigma 40 Blaster
06-11-2007, 07:23 AM
I have looked all over the Internet (at least half of it anyway) and have yet to find a recipe for a load of .380 I want to throw together as soon as I get my Lee dies in this week.

I already have some 95 grain cast round nose bullets and some Unique powder if that helps anyone. I did run across one that called for 4.5 grains of Unique with the same bullet but that sounds a little too hot considering I use 5.2 grains for a 180 grain 40 cal...

Anyone who has reliable load data for this puppy please give me a holler, if I don't have the powder I'll go buy it...just please give me some good confirmed data.

Thanks for your time.

versifier
06-11-2007, 03:14 PM
This is data for a 95gr jacketed bullet and UNIQUE from the Sierra manual.
Charge Velocity
3.1............750
3.3............800
3.5............850
3.7............900
3.9............950
4.0Max.....1000
Test pistol was a Walther PPK and best accuracy was obtained in that pistol at 3.9gr, just a hair less than max. Work it up carefully, though and watch your primers in the fired cases. Cast boolits shoot at higher velocity and lower pressure compared to jacketed of the same weight with the same charge.
With a 90grJHP, my PPK does best with 4.2gr UNIQUE, a max load, but it is NOT pleasant to shoot.
If the load you found was for a cast boolit, it might be safe in someone's gun, but I would not want to go that high, certainly not in a little pistol.

Sigma 40 Blaster
06-13-2007, 04:54 PM
Thanks versifier,

I was going to start at 3.5-3.7 just to play it safe...I believe one of my Lee Disks is "preset" to 3.5 gr...so what you're saying is that I'll probably get better than 850 fps with that powder load with less "kick". I'm shooting a Bersa .380 blowback so I'm more concerned with the pressure curve than I am with my larger "normal" guns.

I'm pretty new to reloading and a little nervous about my first load that's not directly out of the Lee Manual (it's kept me safe so far). As soon as I get my dies in I'll slam together 14 rounds (2 clips worth) and report back.

Thanks again.

versifier
06-14-2007, 04:21 AM
There's a reason why starting loads are called that. Start at 3.0-3.1, then work up one increment at a time. The table's listed max may well be over pressure in some pistols, every one is different. The drawback of the Autodisk is that you cannot fine tune your load as you can with a better measure and scale. Not quite so critical with most handgun rounds, but when you approach max loads, you have to be even more careful. BTW, you need at minimum TWO manuals (and three is better) to check on their suggested loads. They are compiled by fallible humans who occasionally make mistakes. I recommend the Lyman Cast Bullet and Sierra manuals to go along with your Lee. You can download a lot of data from the powder manufacturers, too - IMR in particular has some good free info, as does Alliant.

Sigma 40 Blaster
06-15-2007, 10:58 PM
Since all the load data I found indicated that 3.5 would be safe I decided to start there (max loads are listed at 4-4.2 on different sites). I think I can safely go up 3.7, I shot 14 rounds but had two squibs...they fired but you could tell it wasn't right...the other 12 landed in a sub 2" group for me.

The other reason I'm moving up is to go to a slightly bigger cavity on the Auto Disk...I'm seriously thinking about replacing it and might soon if my next batch of ammo has any light charges...I've loaded around 1,000 40 S&W and no problems so far.

The primers indicated a light load so :

My next load will be:
95 gr. lead RN
3.7 gr. Unique
OAL - .975

Thanks for your input and suggestions, I appreciate it.

versifier
06-16-2007, 04:36 PM
If you are getting "sqibs", then there is obviously a problem, either with primer storage/handling/seating or powder storage/dispensing. Maybe it would be smarter to first figure out for sure what is causing the problem before you go upping charges. Since you are clearly willing to bypass basic safe loading practices by starting in the upper end of the charge table, there may well be other basics you are overlooking in your haste. I recommend caution and a careful evaluation of your loading routine until you have figured out where the problem is. Ignition problems like that can lead to serious consequences, depending on the cause. I would really rather you did not inadvertantly become a troubling statistic.

kg42
06-16-2007, 07:29 PM
Sorry I didn't see that coming as I have the same problem with flake powders (700X and some surplus Herco).
It seems that the flakes bunch together and block the cavities filling.
With the 700X, the first disk will give very irregular charges; the second will deliver the occasional odd sounding loads with some stove pipes in 9mm (.46 and .49cc).

I can only suggest you to switch to ball powders for the little 380 as they don't mind the narrow cavities; but you might need the Micro Disk kit as they are usually denser than the flake ones.

versifier
06-17-2007, 02:07 AM
That makes sense. I have never used a Lee AutoDisk measure - about the only Lee product I have never tried. If that is in fact the cause of Blaster's problems, then he's good to go. I would double check by using a loading block and drop charges in all the cases, then go back with a bright light and check the powder levels. Light charges should be pretty obvious then, and he would know for sure.

Lee makes an adjustable volumetric measure, the Perfect, that is fairly inexpensive and will also work with their turret presses. Then he can use any powder without worrying. All of the big makers sell good powder measures, I like the Lyman & RCBS the best of those I have used over the years.

I'm still using my 35 year old Uniflow for all my powder dispensing chores. Miniscule charges of Bullseye to mega charges of 3031 or 4895, all drop consistantly. With the proper tapping, even IMR powders won't bridge in it. I have never seen the need to buy a more modern measure, they are still making it with no changes in God knows how long. I like their "if it works don't fix it" attitude.

kg42
06-17-2007, 08:18 PM
The PPM from LEE is not that perfect, considering its price with the charging die.
For one thing it is not meant to expand cases so you need an extra station. I was able to make an insert and use some of the standard expander plugs, but this works only for cases of about 1.29".

I bought it when I used very fine ball powder that leaked in my original Auto-Disk, but haven't needed it since I updated with the Pro kit.
Some reloaders have also complained that the PPM was not accurate for small loads of ball powders... I don't know; it worked fine with 12 grs and up for me.

Sigma 40 Blaster
06-17-2007, 11:45 PM
Versifier, thanks again for your input and concern. I opted to start at 3.5 gr. because I didn't see anyplace that called that out as close to a max load...I had a co-worker who's been loading for longer than I've been living providing input...both of you pretty much said the same thing. I'm not trying to disregard safety at all.

The primers are kept in an open shelf at room temperature, no problems from the same lot of primers I've been using in my .40 cal (zero problems). Powder storage same thing...haven't had either for more than a month.

I loaded 28 bullets at 3.7 grains, no problems at all. I then loaded another 28...no problems at all. Than I proceeded to make about 450 more and had the same problems as before at a rate of 2 out of 10.

I am making sure all finished cartridges are roughly .980 +/- .005...could this be a case of not enough crimping??? Again, all cases are the same diameter at the mouth, I'm expanding just enough to place the bullet, and the finished cartidge dimensions are right on...

kg42, I am also starting to suspect that my Auto Disk is throwing inconsistent loads with this small dose of flake powder. I was doing visuals on every load and I did find myself pulling a few before bullet placement...but for the most part they all looked right on.

Could my problem be a crimping issue or more because of an inconsistent charge?

I'll probably end up weighing about 50 of my finished cartridges to see if my weights are off (using same brand of brass and bullets luckily for me) and will see if any lighter bullets are my problems. I think I'm going to switch to a ball powder (Bullseye???) for my reloading ventures...I'm not sure if I'll be reloading this caliber again. It's just strange that I had no problems at all with my .40 cal at 5.something grains (don't remember it, have it written down in my loading book).

The weird thing is that all of the cartridges fire, they even hit where I'm aiming. There is just not enough recoil to eject the case and the sound is eerily poofy...I appreciate your input and look forward to any more ideas or tips.

versifier
06-18-2007, 01:31 AM
I'd switch to a different powder measure - borrow one if necessary - to confirm the cause. That is the most likely cause, but you can't just guess, you have to know. More on that below.

Weighing finished rounds won't necessarily help as there is a good amount of variation from case to case - you might get by doing it with a small case like a .380, but you'll have to weigh a bunch of uncharged cases to find out how much variation they have (in a recent batch of 100, commercial .30-06 cases can vary by as much as 10grains). If the differences are too small to see on a visual check, then the only way to tell is to charge a bunch in a block of, say, 50 and check-weigh them. With a funnel, you can put the good ones back in and seat bullets in them. It will take longer than usual, but it will confirm what you need to know. If you were finding problems in 2 out of 10, it should become apparent quickly.

Eliminating other causes we can do with the extra information you provided. Crimping is not the issue, unless the rounds are telescoping as they are fed. That is exremely bad pressure-wise, but you would have noticed it and it wouldn't cause squibs. As carefully as you have been watching OAL, if there were insufficient neck tension, you would have noticed variation from round to round. I would store primers in a sealed ammo can with a dessicant pack to control humidity. Neither powder nor primers should be stored where the temperature will get really hot, but as you haven't had them for long enough to see any degredation, and they have all been going off, I would eliminate them as a cause, too. I'm assuming that you are not finding unburned powder or you would have mentioned it. With UNIQUE, you'd have seen it easily and have had to clean it all out of the workings.

The thing about "Max load" is that it is a relative term and in practice is different for every firearm, even two chambered the same. I shoot a lot of older (and antique) military rifles - some of them display pressure signs with starting loads. With handguns, especially semi-autos, the flattening and cupping of primers so easily spotted with rifle cases is not always easily seen. In fact, it is easier to see underpowered loads in pistols when the cases fail to obturate and leave the fired primers raised. Often, when there is an overpressure, the barrel fails (KABOOM) and there are no apparent signs on the brass fired immediately before the failure. With a blowback operated pistol, you can sometimes notice the recoil being sharper, especially with smaller and lighter guns, and the report louder (which is more likely to be noticed by bystanders than the shooter). With UNIQUE, the incremental increases in .380ACP are only .2 gr, and then .1 to max. That is no big deal with a large rifle case holding 40+ grains, but with an itty bitty pistol case and charges approaching max, bridging and overcharge in the next case can cause a small handgun to become flying shrapnel. Fortunately, the Lee design prevents that, but does not prevent undercharging. (Similar comments have been made about the RCBS Little Dandy which uses small cavities also.) With larger adjustable measures, you only have to worry about bridging with IMR extruded powders, and flake or ball powders, even in tiny charges, meter very consistantly.

I like UNIQUE a lot, and have been using it in a Walther .380 that my dad carries for twenty years. It is not a fun pistol to shoot, and the slide has carnivorous tendencies, but he likes it the once or twice a year he shoots it is no big deal. While he may shoot several hundred rounds of .45ACP at a range session, he seldom shoots more than two mags out of the Walther. UNIQUE is my "go-to" powder for most handgun rounds: .380, 9mm, .38spec, .357mag, 40S&W, .45ACP, and it works well for some cast loads in rifles. I buy it in 4lb jugs.

Sigma 40 Blaster
06-18-2007, 03:42 AM
I was afraid of case variation, I still have about 100 pieces left...same brand but who knows if it's the same lot...after I thought about it a little I decided that'd be an exercise in futility.

I haven't seen any unburned powder, but I am getting some NASTY blowback (very little)...I guess it could be semi-burned powder but it doesn't have the look or consistency of powder flakes.

I'm about to set up to load some more .40's tomorrow, these guys require a little more powder but I'm going to do as you suggested, drop a charge in 50 cases and inspect them in a loading block. I don't suspect that cavity (.57 cc) will give me any trouble but I might drop charges in some .380 with the correct disk and observe just to see what happens. I'm going to borrow a scale and see how accurate and consistent Mr. Lee's measure really is. I'm also going to see if there are any home grown solutions for it (lubricate with graphite or anything else).

I probably won't reload the .380 again, I just needed enough to plink without breaking the bank...I'm trying to get accurate with it at the 10-15 yard range (I know that's probably a stretch). I might load up one more batch...it's just more fun shooting than the .40 but not being able to shoot off-hand rapid fire with it takes some of the fun out of it.

Thanks for your help, the fully charged cartridges fire a little more smoothly than factory ammo with 3.7 gr. of Unique (if it is not 3.7 gr. I'll post back in a separate thread title Lee Auto Disk...should be good for information) and the 95 gr. cast bullet. I think if there is a next time I'm going to go with a jacketed or plated bullet as my Bersa got VERY dirty from 100 rounds.

NOW...should I go ahead and shoot the 400+ rounds I have loaded carefully or just chalk this one up to experience in your opinion??? A guy actually offered to pay me 6.00/50 rounds despite the occasional undercharge (I fully disclosed my problems) but I don't need anything bad on my conscience.

Thanks for the patience and input, I like this forum quite a bit...hopefully I'll be able to help someone out one day.

versifier
06-18-2007, 02:53 PM
The only danger in shooting them that I can see is if there were no charge in a case, the primer has enough power to get the bullet into the barrel, but not out of it and headed downrange. Then when the next round is fired......:shock: The light charges seem to have enough powder in them to launch the bullets downrange. If you can confirm that the problem is the powder measure, then they should be safe to shoot, but I would check the barrel after each light load just to be sure nothing is lodged in it. If you cannot confirm the cause, the safest thing to do is to pull them, but I myself would be doing a lot of experimenting with the measure and scales before I pulled 400+ rounds :( .

Real squib loads are arrived at by incrementally dropping the charge until one does stay in the barrel, then raising the charge enough to be sure they all go downrange. I read about it being used in revolvers for indoor shooting and though I have not tried this myself, I have tried Jordan's method of primer powered wax bullets in .357mag revolvers, which seems to me a safer alternative. I don't think really light loads in a semi-auto is a good idea, but it is a personal opinion. It means single loading each round, and I think that kinda defeats the purpose of having a semi-auto in the first place.

Sigma 40 Blaster
06-19-2007, 12:19 AM
Thanks for all your advice...every time I pull the trigger and just get a "poof" I have been checking the barrel, I know the one time I don't check....

I really didn't intend to make these things light, I try to make my hand loads "feel" as close to my premium ammo so in the event I need to use my CCW I will hopefully revert to "range habits" (I'm sure instinct will take over in that moment). I also don't think shooting really light loads in an auto is a good idea...that's why they make .22's right???

Thanks again, will post back with any further info I find.

Sigma 40 Blaster
06-29-2007, 11:50 AM
For anyone interested I borrowed a scale from a friend and weighed 50 charges from the Lee Auto Disk. I found the cavity that should give 3.7 gr. of Unique was giving me between 3.1 and 3.5 grains. I found out that

1 - I needed to lubricate the moving parts that actuate the powder measure (the moving part of my expansion die) because it's movement was not as smooth as it could be

2 - My reloading bench is not an actual reloading bench, it is the best thing I have at the moment...it is not level (way off actually) any direction we checked it

3 - I also needed to lubricate the auto indexing parts of my Lee Pro...I never noticed that I was losing powder as the cases indexed because it was a little "jerky"

4 - It was weird but I backed off my crimping die until it just barely knocked the flare out and readjusted my seating die and ran finished ammo through it...the rate of Poof rounds drastically reduced.

So in other words most of it was me, my bench, and having equipment in need of maintenance.

versifier
06-29-2007, 02:43 PM
The important thing is that you took the time to trace down the problem. Now you know and can avoid it in the future. Every vote against Hillary counts. :-D

kg42
06-29-2007, 08:37 PM
New (and factory once used) brass can grab the expanding dies with a vengeance and jerk a lot at the release.
Do you deburr them with a chamfer tool before the first use?

kg

Sigma 40 Blaster
07-01-2007, 11:37 PM
Thanks again for the help, walking me through troubleshooting my problems...

kg, I haven't done any deburring, or even resizing yet, because I haven't seen any cases in need of it...I have some brass that's on it's fifth trip back home with me and I'm going to size/debur and compare with newer brass...I honestly can't tell if my brass needs deburring and the guys at the local shop say it's a waste of time unless you're competing...

kg42
07-02-2007, 07:18 PM
Are you saying that you don't resize your brass? It must be a typo if I remember you procedure (the decapper is in the resizing die).

Without resizing only the crimp would prevent the bullet from being kicked on top of the powder when it hits the feeding ramp (=surpressure) or jump out of the case with the recoil; and an excessive crimp would allow the cartridge to squeeze its neck in the barrel throat (with surpressure when the bullet gets out).
Straight rimless cases headspace on their neck which must remain as straight as possible. A light taper crimp is the best option for them.

Neck tension is important in most loads to allow proper combustion of the powder too; the exceptions being some cast loads in rifles and revolvers (some shooters argue that point and rely on crimp, which is only a limited option in autoloader).

Chamfering/deburring your brass will remove residual edge from factory crimp, make bullet seating easier with less neck expansion and prevent lead shaving. But then you might not be affected by these problems to start with....

Sigma 40 Blaster
07-02-2007, 11:06 PM
That is a typo...I meant I don't trim the cases...not resize...it's been a long couple of weeks.

I haven't seen any of those problems yet (lead shaving anyway...if it's happening I can't see it). I got a batch of DIIIRRRRTTTTYYYYY bullets online and the residue you speak of is very obvious (I just inspected a few before tossin em in the tumbler). I'm going to investigate the chamfering/deburring hardware, I've seen plenty of Lee products but haven't had the time or money to investigate it yet, I'll probably go ahead and get a case trimmer while I'm at it.

How long does it take to get all the reloading stuff you need??? I don't think it'll ever end, my wish list at MidwayUsa keeps getting longer and longer haha.

After I rescue my Bushmaster AR 15 from layaway I'm going to venture into the wild world of reloading rifle rounds, looks like I'm gonna have to slow way down for that...I'm not sure if I trust my Lee Pro 1000 with those but I'm investigating that right now. There's a RCBS press at the gun shop (single stage press only) used for 65.00, I'm thinking about scooping it up for rifle and decapping/sizing.

Anyways, thanks for the info and sorry for the confusion.

kg42
07-03-2007, 09:39 PM
Crimping with a separate die is a good way to avoid lead shaving.

Buying a separate single stage will allow you to resize and deprime more easily than using the pro1000 for a single operation.
If you can, buy a press with a priming arm at the bottom like the Classic Cast from LEE.
It's easy and convenient if, for example, you want to prime the cases without cleaning the primer pockets, or prime just before loading the case in the LEE die... that's two operations without taking the brass out of the press.

Lenght trimming is not necessary for straight autoloading cartridges. It can actually make things worse as the rim of the cases is battered by the ejector, and some case trimmers "headspace" on that uneven rim.
That was the case of a Lyman one I borrowed some years ago...

So I bought a Hornady which, as far as I remember didn't have that problem, maybe because I stopped trimming ACP brass... It however had the annoying habit of not holding either LP or SP cases well, because of the similar size of the part pressing the case tight in the shell holder... it wouldn't quite fit the pocket or stay out of it.

My advice is to go with the very affordable LEE system of cutter, lock stud and gages. Just watch out for blisters :-D .

I usually order from LEE directly. It used to be THE deal from other countries but they have changed their shipping policy (they would charge a flat rate of a couple of dollars for shipping...).
Compare Midway with grafs, huntingtons and lockstock for example.