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klausg
05-01-2006, 02:01 PM
Hey gang-
I just got a mess, (1000 rds) of nickel-plated brass on a bargain, and I am now hearing rumors that it's not good to reload the stuff; the rumors vary from "don't use it" to "it will leave deposits on your carbide sizer die". Can you guys either confirm or de-bunk these rumors. I have always reloaded the stuff in the past, (not in these amounts, just what I picked up here & there) with no problems; but I'd rather not trash my dies if I can help it. Thanks much in advance.:-D

-SSG Klaus

versifier
05-01-2006, 06:11 PM
Try this: Take all such advice and pile it next to your vegetable garden. Cover it with black plastic and weight down the edges. Ignore it all summer. Spread it on the garden after first frost to fertilize next year's veggies. Be prepared for a bumper crop. :mrgreen:

Seriously, I have been using nickel-plated pistol and rifle brass for 30+ years with no ill effects on my dies. If anything, they are in my opinion easier on carbide dies because there is no oxidation on the outsides of the cases and stuff is less likely to stick there. Grit is what ruins sizing dies, regular or carbide, although dropping a carbide sizer on a concrete floor will shatter one. :shock: (Don't ask.)

Decent brass that's properly cared for won't cause you any problems at all. I don't even clean my brass - never have. I do keep it clean, usually in plastic ammo boxes, and am careful to wipe off any cases that hit the ground before returning them to the storage boxes. I estimate that my .38/.357 carbide sizer has seen much more than 10,000 rounds through it, and that's a very conservative estimate - it was bought in 1977 and I shoot more of it than anything else (2500 loaded last year, about average, almost 700 so far this year and I really haven't started shooting yet). There are no signs of wear on the carbide sizing ring.

All my carry ammo is in nickel-plated cases, and all my rifle hunting ammo, too. The only drawback to the rifle cases is that the Rem brand aren't quite as accurate as my preferred stash of WW cases, but as I like to say, I hear no complaints from the deer in the freezer. ;-)

One possible source of those rumors: Several times I have happened upon some el cheapo handgun cases from Asian or Eastern European companies that have begun to shed their plating upon resizing. While I do not believe that this is hard enough to damage a sizing die, whenever I have encountered any I have simply tossed the whole lot into the recycling bucket. I do take home quite a bit of range brass that I use for practicing, and there is an occasional surprise in with it. Like they say in the kitchen, "When in doubt throw it out." So I do just that.

Toney
05-01-2006, 06:22 PM
They work good for me. Had problems with them spliting but i figured out i was over expanding them for the cast bullets

klausg
05-01-2006, 06:34 PM
Toney/versifier- Thanks for the reply, I kind of figured it was all a bunch of hooey, but it's nice to get my opinions endorsed. Not to mention it never hurts to check. Again thanks for the input, you guys are a Godsend.

-SSG Klaus

kg42
05-01-2006, 07:08 PM
The usual advice is : "They aren't any good but I will go through the trouble of taking them from you for free" .... you obviously had to deal with gossipers who lost the essence of the tradition :)

It might be that repeated use of steel dies was tougher on pistol cases than the carbide tools we have now though...

kg

doc25
05-22-2006, 06:55 PM
I love the nickel it looks so pretty and when you're shooting with others it is easy to identify your brass!

d-o-k
05-30-2006, 01:35 AM
I'm extreamly fond of Nickle plated brass & due to a lazy streak ....Carbide dies ! I,ve never had any problems with either ! I think a lot of the bad Press on both have come from cheap offerings & the fact that some reloaders /shooters are really frightened of change .

Dave

Baldy
06-02-2006, 01:35 AM
I use both. After I take them out of the tumbler, I wipe them off and get the cob out of them. Then I put them in a plactic shoe box and spray a little Hornady's case lube on them and run them through the sizing die. I have carbite dies but what the heck it makes everything work a lot eaiser. Them shiney cases will look like they was made at the factory. Remingtons are thinner and will not last as long as Win's or Star Line. The ones I get will split between 4&6 reloads. If one is flaking I don't use it. I say load them.:-D

versifier
06-02-2006, 02:23 AM
Baldy,
I wonder if there is another cause that would explain your short case life. What kind of longevity do your other cases get? I have had Rem .357mag and .38spec cases that have gone over 20 loadings with UNQ max/+P loads, just like the WW's. These are the only calibers that I shoot max loads. They do seem a little thinner, and they weigh a bit less, but they have a little more powder capacity (not that it's needed). I find that careful chamfering reduces the amount that I have to work the brass, but that might be irrelevant to your trouble.

Baldy
06-02-2006, 10:00 PM
:confused: Well lets see if I can remember. You are right I do bell the case a little to much. That's why they don't last as long as the brass plus I use a sung crimp. The case mouths just get weak I guess. I shoot mostly 357 & 38's at max loads also. The brass last for ever but the nickle just seems to go to pots after about six rounds. Remington brass doesn't hold up real well either. I don't even buy it anymore. I use nothing but Winchester. I am going to do a little ajusting on my press Versifier and see what I get.:mrgreen:

Shoot fast make one Hole..

kodiak1
06-03-2006, 12:53 AM
If it couldn't be reloaded how did they make it into a cartridge in the first place????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????
Ken.

versifier
06-03-2006, 03:56 AM
Baldy,
It just seems odd to me that there should be such a dramatic difference in case life, and I was hoping that there might be an obvious explanation. No put down of you was in any way intended. It's just a mystery, and I like to try to get to the bottom of mysteries like that.

There was a thread not too long ago on the CB board speculating about different brands of brass. Some loaders feel very strongly about it as Baldy does, based on his own experience (which I believe is every bit as valid as mine, even if different). And if someone is really negative about one brand of brass (excluding the European and Asian cheapos), it seems like usually it's Remington that they don't like. The general consensus next door was that with the ones that aren't big sellers, whichever company was currently making the run just did it with however many headstamps were needed and sold it to the others for resale. It does on the face of it explain why there can be a lot of inconsistency with different lots with the same headstamp. But, with a big seller like .38 or .357, that doesn't sound right or practical.

Remington only sells nickle rifle brass in the most common calibers, but all of the big ones sell nickle handgun brass, and I would think it's reasonable to conclude that each company makes its own. FWIW, I have never had a bad batch of WW handgun brass, or of their rifle brass in any of the most common cases. I have, however had problems with some not-so common WW ones like 8x57, .300Sav, and .257 Roberts. I have had rare bad batches of Rem & Fed handgun brass, but also batches of them that have had really good case life. I have never had a problem with REM or Fed rifle brass in common calibers, but again I have had occasional problems with a batch of less common or oddball ones, and about as often as with WW. What I'm saying is that my experiences seem to support the consensus next door, i.e. with the less common, anybody might have made it.

It is an observed fact that with all three companies, in a batch of 1000 cases (both new and once-fired), there will be a lot of weight variation within the batch, and no one company has shown less variation or closer tolerances than another. It still doesn't answer the question of why, but it does suggest four possibilities 1) I have been unusually lucky to get mostly good batches of Rem brass, 2) some have been unusually unlucky to get mostly bad batches of Rem brass, 3) there really is a problem with Rem producing consistent brass, or 4) since we're all so totally into shooting and loading we're all nuts to start with. :mrgreen: Despite my experience, from all that I have heard, I'm leaning towards 1 & 3, and I still have more questions than answers.

There is one thing I am convinced of, though, and that is that even if some brands of brass have longer life than others, nickle plating in and of itself does not in any way contribute to a decrease in case or sizing die life.

Baldy
06-03-2006, 04:22 AM
:confused: Hey Versifier maybe you are up in the far northern part of the country and I am in the far south and maybe we are getting our brass from two different plants, or companys. About 2yrs ago one of the guys down at the range had measured the wall thickness between several of the major brands. He found there was a difference but I can't remember them. I will ask around down there this weekend and see if anybody knows. I have just started reloading and I didn't pay it much mind what the man said at the time. I don't have any nickel now but if I did I would pay real close attention to what happen with it. I may buy a box and run some test on them myself. Your are right about me belling them out a little to much as I have already reset that. I had about 50 nickel and run out of them fairly quick. I'll get more this week end. I say load them till they split brass or nickel.

Shoot fast make one Hole..[smilie=w:

versifier
06-03-2006, 06:05 PM
I don't buy my brass locally, but get it from places like Midway. I do use range brass, though, and I have no idea as to its origin. I haven't bought factory loaded ammo in at least thirty years, except .22's. I don't know if the "biggies" have multiple locations for their ammo making operations, but it is a logical assumption that if they do it could easily be a reason for batch to batch inconsistency.

As to thickness, that makes sense, too. One of the members who lives in southern CA was talking about loading .30 Mauser and mentioned that he found that the Rem brass he was getting was thinner, and this enabled him to load a slightly larger boolit and get better accuracy from his broomhandle with an overlarge bore. I have also heard more than one mention this with regard to .45ACP. All considered this to be a positive thing, accuracy wise, but the discussion was about cast boolit/bore relative sizes, not about the life of the brass.

In my .308 cases, the Rem plated rifle brass I use measures .013 neck thickness vs. WW unplated at .015. While I have a lot of four different headstamps, all of it is loaded right now and not available for measurement. That's not a big enough sample to make any kind of real judgement, but it does lend a little weight to the theory.

Woolybooger
06-04-2006, 12:24 AM
Howdy All
I'm new here and this thread caught my eye first. I have used Rem. and Starline nickle plated in 44 mag, 357mag and 38. I start getting cracked case mouths after 5 or 6 loadings. I have some Rem. and Win. brass that have had 20 + full ppower loads and are still holding up. The dies are set the same and loads are the same. I had some nickle 22 hornet cases and fired them thru my K hornet. I lost quite a few with splits in them also. I just don't get the service out of nickle.
W.B.

Baldy
06-04-2006, 04:01 AM
Hi Woolybooger and Welcome aboard. [smilie=w: I sure am glad that I wasn't the only one having a problem with nickel cases. :) Hey Versifier I asked down at the supply shop where I get my brass, powers, and all my goodies for reloading today and the main man says they don't even reload nickel except by special request. He said the cases are thinner and they also have trouble with them buckleing at the base. I let him go at that as they were busey as bees in there today. I'll catch him another day and pick his mind a little more. I stopped at two shops on the way home and nobody had any 38's in nickel but they had 357's at at $17.95 a box and I just had to pass. That' would be plum crazy to pay that much when I can do the same thing for about $4.80 a box. I think you would agree with me on that one. I'll go to the range tomorrow and see what I can dig up. Some of them guys been reloading since spot was a pup.

Shoot fast make one Hole..[smilie=s:

d-o-k
06-04-2006, 06:24 AM
I had some nickle 22 hornet cases and fired them thru my K hornet. I lost quite a few with splits in them also. I just don't get the service out of nickle

Welcome to the guide WB This is quite a common problem with fire forming Hornet to K hornet with nickle cases . I have had the same trouble with Rem hornet brass ! Both in forming & just plain Jane resizing! I find that WW brass is the best to fire form & I thourghly recomend anealing after forming your brass ! AS for Revolver ammo I really like nickle & carbide dies & I always bell the mouth of my cases as well as chamfer the mouth of new brass & after trimming

Dave

dale clawson
06-05-2006, 02:50 AM
I just recently bought some rem. 222 nickle brass, one was split in the neck right out of the bag, hope that's not indicative of things to come! I do have some 243 nickle cases that have gone through 4 loadings without any losses.

Marshal Kane
06-05-2006, 03:41 AM
Ruined a perfectly good .357 magnum steel sizer die in the '60s resizing R-P nickel plated brass. After the first resizing the nickel took on a flat dull finish. This was followed soon by the nickel blistering around the casemouth. Particles of nickel came off and imbeded themselves in the die. The cases next came out full of scratches. Believe carbide can stand up to nickel however am never going to resize a nickel straightwall pistol case again in any of my dies. Have converted to 100% brass. For those of you who reload with nickel cases successfully, good luck and hope you never have my experience with them.

d-o-k
06-06-2006, 12:32 AM
G'day & welcome to the Guide Marshal ! I must admit I've always been of the school of thought that Nickle cases should only be used in carbide dies .THe whole concept of nickle bottle neck cases has me scratching my head ,I must admit

Dave

versifier
06-06-2006, 01:52 AM
Dave,
The theory is, in humid climates, handgun or rifle ammo stored in leather especially, but also in cloth loops often begin to oxidize and you end up with a band of verdegris on the body of the case that makes it difficult or impossible to chamber. Many people just leave it in the loops from one season to the next. Nickled cases don't corrode.

The handgun ammo became popular first with law enforcement as many in that line of work become lax with the maintainence of their revolvers and it sometimes became difficult or impossible to eject fired cases and reload. This cost lives.

It is not an uncommon sight even today to see would be hunters at the range to check their sights before deer season scraping off their cartridges with a pocket knife as they remove them from a belt slide and load them into their rifles. Here, as in many other places, we're likely to encounter rain, snow, sleet, freezing rain, hail and miserable combinations of all of them in the course of a single day during the November deer season. Actions get soaked and so can the rounds in the magazine, worsening the problem. The steel is usually protected by a light coating of oil, but not the ammo. If a man hunts out from his back door, he might not need to unload to get into a vehicle, and just set the loaded rifle behind the door at night. In an unlucky season, the rifle may not be unloaded until more than a month has past. At one time, I used to earn a good bit post season in the weeks before Xmas undoing such things for others - removing rust, spot bluing, cleaning and relubing internal parts.

Now, I load a lot of custom hunting ammo in nickled rifle cases for friends and hunting buddies, maybe a couple hundred rounds of it every year, in .243, .30-30, .308, .30-06. We don't use it for practice or target work except to check sights, for that we buy regular cases in bulk.

Baldy
06-06-2006, 02:14 AM
:mrgreen: Welcome on the Board Marshall. Hope you enjoy it.

Baldy
06-06-2006, 02:39 AM
Hey Versifier I didn't get down to the range like I wanted, some kin came in from up North.
My son in law brought me over about 250 nickel cases. :-D Only 6 or so was Remington. I loaded them all. They are 357's with 7.8gr's of 231 Winchester, 125gr bullet, win-mag primers, and OAL is 1.580". It's going to take a while to shoot through these to get a fair test on them but will try. I don't know where he got all these or how many times they been fired. Heck I never even heard of some of these.
I am mostly interested in the Remington as that's the ones I had that I didn't have a lot of luck with. I'll say in touch on the form.

d-o-k
06-06-2006, 03:09 AM
That's a interesting twist On ammo firearm corrosion ! WE have the same problem over here more so in the tropics !I have to watch my firearms due to the fact of working in all weather & at night with heavy dues ! I've found though With our ADI Powders (many of which are sold to you under the Hogdon label now ) Climate conditions do not affect pressures which has been a blessing with th tmpriture variables that I work with! I may in fact have a look at Nickle cased .223 in the near future . I as I pointed out was always let to belive that you had to use carbide dies to reload Nickle cases .This is what I like about these forums ! A Old dog can learn new tricks ! :-D

Dave

Marshal Kane
06-06-2006, 03:26 AM
G'day & welcome to the Guide Marshal ! DaveG'day mate, good to join such a right nice dedicated group to learn and share experiences.

Marshal Kane
06-06-2006, 03:30 AM
:mrgreen: Welcome on the Board Marshal. Hope you enjoy it.Glad to join up with all the folks. Already know a few of you and feel downright at home.

d-o-k
06-06-2006, 06:26 AM
That's great to hear Marshal . It's a great place to get together & yarn & swap info ! If one bloke dose'nt know the answer someone else will & we all benifit from it !

Dave

robertbank
06-06-2006, 01:20 PM
Jeez just when I was about to throw out a zillion 9MM nickle cases I get educated! Actually I find nickly cases much easier to run through my press for reasons god only knows. Much easier to clean asa well. Because I have what right now is an unlimited supply of 9MM once fired brass I just reload it once and then toss the cases in the recycle bin.

My question is simply can nickle brass by recycled with the nickly plating on it?

Take Care

versifier
06-06-2006, 02:39 PM
My question is simply can nickle brass by recycled with the nickly plating on it?

The scrapyards here don't care, it's all brass to them. There's a lot of old nickle plated brass plumbing fixtures that get brought in along with mixed range brass and other scrap and they take it all. (Maybe they sell it all back to Remington...:mrgreen: )

Baldy
06-07-2006, 12:13 AM
:coffee: Hey Diversifier I got a odd ball case here the other day from my son in law. There's about 12 of them with the markings: N R_CCI_38 they feel like they are made out of alumium. Any Idea who makes these? I am not even going to try and reload these. They are real light.

versifier
06-07-2006, 01:43 AM
You have CCI Blazer cases. They are aluminum, Berdan primed, and non-reloadable. I have several in my collection in various calibers that, along with a few other brass Berdan primed cases, I show students so they know what not to waste their time messing with. If one has to buy factory ammo to practice with (a scary thought in itself) they're a couple bucks a box cheaper.

Marshal Kane
06-07-2006, 02:57 AM
:coffee: Hey Diversifier I got a odd ball case here the other day from my son in law. There's about 12 of them with the markings: N R_CCI_38 they feel like they are made out of alumium. Any Idea who makes these? I am not even going to try and reload these. They are real light.Check the flashole and see if there aren't two of them in there. Suspect you have some CCI Blazer aluminum cases which are Berdan primed and not easily reloaded unless you have the correct equipment. If this is Boxer primed it should have the standard single flashole. CCI Blazer ammunition is not meant to be reloaded.

Baldy
06-07-2006, 03:19 AM
:-D Thanks Versifier & Marshall for the information. They must be CCI Blazer as they have the two flash holes in them. Something told me they were junk and not to load them. Thanks for keeping me out of trouble as I had never heard of this.

d-o-k
06-07-2006, 04:38 AM
Berdan primed ammo is quite common with Milsurp .303,7.62 & 5.56 if made in Australia ( in the case of .303 mil surp it's near all berdan primed ) Not only is it a right royal pain in the But to De prime ,but it is a slightly larger Primer & has sent manys the young reloader to the brink of insanity /Suicide trying to reload it !:eek:

Dave

lovedogs
06-12-2006, 10:22 PM
All I can do is relay what I've heard from reliable sources. Everyone I have talked to here doesn't like nickel plated cases. One friend who worked for Dan Wesson told me they shoot up ammo by the 55 gal. drum-full, so they have some experience with brass. Many take their once-fired home and re-use it. He told me they gave up on both plated brass and Remington brass. All he would use is Winchester.

In my own experience I've noticed that all Remington brass, both pistol and rifle, split necks with fewer reloadings than other brands. My favorites are Winchester and Starline. I use Rem. only if it's all I can get, like when the 7-08 first came out and you couldn't get it in any other brand. Also, I've noted that even Rem. will last longer if you clean the case neck with a brush and dip it in graphite before sizing it.

doc25
06-12-2006, 11:16 PM
Jeez just when I was about to throw out a zillion 9MM nickle cases I get educated! Actually I find nickly cases much easier to run through my press for reasons god only knows. Much easier to clean asa well. Because I have what right now is an unlimited supply of 9MM once fired brass I just reload it once and then toss the cases in the recycle bin.

Yes unfortunately this 9mm brass is useless and you should send it to me to be destroyed (at your cost naturally):-D .

Baldy
07-11-2006, 04:00 AM
Versifier I got to give up on the Remington cases that I been testing as they now have 12 firings on them and they are still going strong. I must have run into a bad batch or something is all I can say. Our 45 leauge is getting ready to start and I am busey as a bee trying to work out some loads for three different guns. The loading pro said they were not using Rems because of the cost factor. That's all I can tell you my friend. I am going to load them till they split. Have a good day. Baldy..:-D

Canuck44
07-11-2006, 05:44 AM
Just to clarify "robertbank" is Canuck44. For some reason the software wouldn't let me register using one name and still use the chat room to two names one person.

For the record the local RCMP now are using Remington ammo for practice which I now get huge supplies of once fired 9MM Remington brass from the range. I had always read that Remington brass was sub standard. Well I have fired over 1,000 rds of reloaded Remington brass withot a hiccup. I only reload it once as I have stated and recycle it due to the volume I get. In testing loads I achieved sub "10" standard deviations with some loads using the brass. If there is something wrong with Remington brass I have not found it in 9MM cases anyway.

I am now saving the nickle brass as well for the recycle bin.

Take Care

Bob

Baldy
07-14-2006, 03:54 PM
Canuck44 are you on 1911.org too? Just nosey, thats me.

Canuck44
07-14-2006, 04:42 PM
Yes sir that is me or is it "I".

Yup, I think we are of common mind when it comes to posting loads etc. Glad to see the apparent demise of ClarkM on that forum. We have such a safe hobby that can go wrong easily without helping the odds along.


Take Care

Bob

Baldy
07-15-2006, 05:34 AM
Hi Robert. Yes I agree. I called him a nut and got a warning from John on that one. I just lost it when he said he had shot fram animals to show off what he knew. I don't think the jerk new so much.
Well anyway glad to see some one I know here. Good bunch. I cover all three forums daily as I am disabled and got the time to do so. I been up in your beautiful country many times, but I was just passing through. I was a truck driver. We always wanted to head up in the back woods and do some fishing and shooting too. To old and broke now. Well have a nice day. Baldy:-D

44Woody
07-16-2006, 10:44 PM
Baldy they are aul caseings and and not be reloades they are cheep ammo I do not understand why people shoot it it is junk I got some given to me once in 44mag out of the 6 I shot 1 did not split on me hope this helps :) 44Woody

Baldy
07-17-2006, 01:23 AM
I need all the help I can get. Thanks everybody.:-D