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rjc
03-20-2009, 01:25 PM
HELLO! I have run into a small problem with reloading 45 ACP i just bought a taurus pt 1911 i realy like it but when i started loading ammo for it i noticed it was starting to push the bullets into the case when it feed from the magazine,i adusted the bell plug to were it is putting a very small bell in the mouth,the bullet just sets in the case mouth enough to were it just clears the rim 1/64 or less,im loading jacketed bullets, when the bullets are loaded i can push the tip of the bullets against wood pretty hard and they dont move but when feed from the magazine they do, it does this on RN JACKETED and jacketed hp more so on the hollow points, the hp are hornady xtp 185 gr, and the RN are rainers 230 gr,the expander plug is just barley hitting the case mouth,and i am taper crimping,what now?thanks.

versifier
03-20-2009, 04:26 PM
While I am no way a 1911 expert, I have been shooting them for some years. Some issues are common to semi auto pistols as a class, some are particular to the platform, some are the fault of poor quality of worn out magazines, and some are the fault of the ammo.

It is not the belling that is causing the problem, nor is it lack of crimp.

Does it happen with factory ammo? If it does it's not the brass, if not it is the brass. First step is to buy a box of decent quality factory ammo and check it out.

I suspect it is the brass. That is, I think, the most likely cause and the easiest to remedy. Every batch of brass is different, and some have thicker case walls than others. What I believe is happening is that you have a batch (or batches) of brass with thin case walls and while the cases are being sized to the proper outside diameter, due to the thinness, they have insufficient neck tension to hold the bullets properly.

If I am correct, you have two ways around the problem. Get different brass or use what you have and shoot properly oversized cast bullets. That solves the what, but not the why.

To be sure it really is the brass, a few questions....
What brand(s) of brass is this happening with? (Don't tell me you've been shooting Amerc and trying to reload it, please. Just checking.)
Are there certain brands that it is not happening with?
If some brands of case are working properly, measure the case walls with a mic, (not a caliper), and see how much difference there is.
What brand(s) of dies are you using?
Are you taper crimping as a separate operation?

As to why it's happening, I have one good guess.

While I am about as far from a fan of any Taurus product as it is possible for a man to be, this time (for once) I really don't think it's the fault of the pistol itself. While there is a very slight possibility that you have a rough feed ramp, I think you would be seeing more classic FTF's than telescoping with a feed ramp issue. But it never hurts to polish any pistol's feed ramp, no matter what your choice of bullets.

I think there may be an angle of feed issue with your magazine(s). That could well be at least a contributing factor to the problem, if not the root cause. The way to check is to try it with a good quality mag and see what happens. Not all 1911 mags are created equal (some are absolute trash) and not all all firearms manufacturers have consistent quality control of tolerances and component materials.

Please let us know what happens.

runfiverun
03-20-2009, 05:43 PM
you ain't got enough neck tension.
measure the inside of your sized case and the outside of your bullet.
you need about 2 thou difference 3 is probably better.
versifier is saying your brass has lost it's ability to spring back,if it was rifle brass it would need to be annealed.

kg42
03-20-2009, 09:17 PM
Hi rjc!

Which brand of dies do you have? It sounds like you can set them to bell without expanding...

Anyways I had the problem years ago. Like said above:
the mag might let the bullet come down too hard on the feeding ramp (are the HP's noses damaged?),
the expanding plug might be too fat,
the sizing die might be a bit large,
the brass might not cooperate,
or all of the above.

My problem went with the gun as the new one won't work with the old mags, and demands minimum cartridge oal to chamber (the bullet seats at the bottom of the expanded part of the case).
The fact that I stopped resizing my cast bullets probably helps too...

Depending on your answer about the expanding die, you migh be able to thin it so that it doesn't over-expand the brass.
Try reloading without expanding, only belling or chamfering the brass. If you ruin a case that way there's a good chance it is tight enough.

Also try a shorter oal, if practical and safe (reduce your load); it will give more grip to the bullet.

rjc
03-20-2009, 09:29 PM
the brass is[ federal one fired] and remington new brass and some winchester once fired,same problem with all the brass,magazines ,2 are the tauras and one is a colt mag the colt mag seems better made ,but it does the same thing also. taper crimping in the same operation as bullet seating,have even put a hard taper crimp on them with little results, the bullet when seated does not flare the side walls of the case out enough to even notice if this helps ? the dies are rcbs dies, the ramp is pretty polished compared to some 1911 it may need more?im not sure with the factory ammo at this piont, but i will check it out tonight and see if it is.keep it comming,thanks.

rjc
03-20-2009, 09:42 PM
currently at the min load recomended for the bullet weights, it will bell with out expanding just touching the case with the plug and i mean barely touching. the bullet will just start in the case by hand it wont even stand up, i reduced the bell to hardly nothing at all, i checked all the bullets .451 and readjusted the tamper crimp went from just a little crimp to a hard crimp,hardly any differance at all ,used a colt mag ,made better! but no differance at all,one thing tho when i run the case up into sizer,[sizes outside only] theres not much force needed they go in pretty easy.

rjc
03-20-2009, 09:52 PM
I think im wrong about the expander because it has a bell molded into the shank A little ways up the shank,could this be the problem the shank is a bit big on the sizer plug?before it gets to the bell. and could it be emery cloth down to get a better grip?

kg42
03-20-2009, 09:52 PM
Don't over-do the crimping in an autoloader as the case head spaces on its mouth. The crimping should be functionnal, so as to avoid hang ups etc.

Contact RCBS and explain the problem to them, they have a good rep for caring.
Like most brands, they are going to turn dies with various effects, results ranging from wasp-sizing cases to problems like yours.

I am sure that factory ammo have some kind of bonding between brass and bullet, ... not fair :)... I also wondered if they had the same problem, but didn't want to buy more of it.

I would expect any bullet to "show" on the outside of the case, but you are not too bad if you cannot move it by hand.
I know how the problem can bug you, but the bottom line is that if the gun is reliable and the loads are safe with a slightly pushed in bullet, you are a lucky 1911 owner.

kg42
03-20-2009, 10:00 PM
could it be emery cloth down to get a better grip?

That's how reloaders do. But call/Email RCBS first before altering the die. It might be that your case is not resized tight enough.

Try measuring the case after sizing and after expanding.

rjc
03-25-2009, 02:23 PM
thanks guys, another ? how far down from the case mouth should you be able to see the roll crimp?and just a update on the problem i am having, i emry clothed the shank a little on the expander plug and polished it up good, it measures between .448 & .449 which seemed to help SOME and polished the feed ramp up[ looks like glass] this seemed to help some also, and feeds the hollow pionts better,i have also noticed that if i run the magizine 1 round short of what it holds ,it feeds higher on the ramp and cures the problem of pushing back the bullet, if loaded full ,the bullets seem to drop down on the nose more before feeding which causes the nose of the bullet to hit father down on the ramp, maybe most of the problem is the magizines,the factory ammo seemed to do better but not much.

versifier
03-25-2009, 05:03 PM
......maybe most of the problem is the magizines, the factory ammo seemed to do better but not much.

I think so. If you have the same problem with factory ammo, it is not your reloads, or they are at most making a minor contribution. You polished the feed ramp, so I doubt it's the pistol. When you have to load a magazine one round short to function, it is the sign of poorly made mags, and the problem will only get worse. I take it you haven't yet tried it with a good mag. Get at least one Wilson mag and see if that doesn't clear up the problem. When it does, toss the cheap mags, they're nothing to bet your life on.

runfiverun
03-26-2009, 04:18 AM
sounds like your mag springs are worn out.
fairly common with the cheaper mags as they use cheaper wire for their springs.

rjc
03-27-2009, 08:39 PM
wilson or kimber ,which ones are best?

runfiverun
03-28-2009, 02:25 AM
doubt there is a best outta them the mc cormik power mags are good too.

versifier
03-28-2009, 02:54 AM
I have used Kimber, Wilson, and Colt. The Colt aren't quite up to the standards of the other two. It's a cointoss which is better. I've never used a McCormik (sp?), but have never heard a complaint about them, either.

runfiverun
03-29-2009, 02:26 AM
you probably got it closer then i did.

rjc
03-30-2009, 01:53 PM
Thanks guys, i will try a good mag and see what happens.

swamp
04-11-2009, 06:21 PM
Get yourself a Lee Factory Crimp Die and your problems will go away and your accuracy will increase (or at least if you have tight groups now, they will be tighter). That die re sizes the entire length of the shell and puts an awesome taper crimp on it which will help feeding and bullet drift. And they sure look pretty when you're done.:wink:

rjc
04-20-2009, 08:50 PM
No more problems with the 45,thanks guys for the help.

armyrat1970
04-25-2009, 10:31 AM
No more problems with the 45,thanks guys for the help.

And what was the final fix?

rjc
05-01-2009, 07:56 PM
Between polishing the ramp a second time and emry clothing the expander die just a bit, it solved the problem ,tryed a differant mag but i think after those 2 things it was pretty much cured ,i havnt noticed any push back since, i also polished the square edge at the top of the ramp almost round, it feeds quicker know and smoother.sorry guys i havnt checked this thread for a while.

Echo
05-21-2009, 05:40 AM
Magazines will cause a ton of trouble, but folks seldom consider them as being at fault. Two additional points:
1. Too little neck tension. Maybe due to thinness/springiness of the brass. I will not load Rem brass for my .45's for that reason. Put the expander/beller spindle in a drill and knock off another thousandth.
2. Don't seat and crimp at the same time. Seat all the bullets with the die backed off the cartridge holder about 1/8 inch, then take the seater stem out, or at least retract it 1/2 inch, screw die down to 1/16 inch from cartridge holder, and check for amount of crimp. Piddle with it until you are happy - you are mainly just removing the bell you put in before.

And it is an old wives tale that the round headspaces on the case neck. Tain't so. Measure the depth of the chamber, then check the trim-length of the cases, or check the length of new cases. Proper headspace occurs when the shoulder, or ogive in the case of RN bullets, imprints on the leade of the rifling. I always seat the shoulder of my boolits out about 1/16 inch. When dropped into a dis-assembled barrel, the rim stands up proud a smidgen, but the slide slamming home does a good job of setting correct headspace. Or so said my old gunsmithing chums.

armyrat1970
05-30-2009, 11:11 AM
I had similar problems with my Norinco when using Winchester Silvertips or any kind of Truncated cone bullet. The truncated cones would not feed reliably at all. The Silvertips kept getting pushed back into the case. A wooden dowel with very fine sandpaper on the feedramp helped. I only use a bullet in my Norinco that is hardball configured, like the Remington 185gr HP or the Federal Personal Defense 165gr HP. Though they are hollow points, they are still HB configured and function with no failures. I also use Chip McCormick mags with a couple of military. I have found the colt mags are a toss up.