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Thread: 6/5 x 55 problem

  1. #1
    Great Master Mike in tx's Avatar
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    Default 6/5 x 55 problem

    1. Factory ammo (Win and PPV) shot well in the Swede.
    2. FL sized Need some muscle here.
    3. Dummy round in Win chambers well Slight crush.
    4. Dummy round in PPV will not chamber
    5. Measured PPV, Win cases and compared to Win factory rounds. All within specs. Used mic and caliper.
    6. No problem chambering and shooting PPV factory loads
    7. Length of case, shoulder, web all within specs.
    8. COL less than factory. I was trying to reach the lands. Never reached that. Kept reducing length.
    9. Mic'd bullets Within specs. .264
    10 Used a shorter shell holder. No change.
    11 Could the die be out of spec. New Lee dies.
    What is going on?

    Thanks
    Mike

  2. #2
    Great Master Mike in tx's Avatar
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    I thought that I had shot all of the PPV up but found a few factory loads. Shoulders look to be the same but there was case stretching of the PPV of 0.007 inch. The Win factory and 1X are within 0.001. I will try the dummies after I trim them back. Still within the specs per Lyman.

  3. #3
    Great Master Mike in tx's Avatar
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    Trimmed the cases to 2.164. Tried 2 dummies. Bolt closed with a crush fit but was hard to lift. No scratches or other marks on the cases.

  4. #4
    Dogs Like Him versifier's Avatar
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    IMO a dummy round should chamber cleanly just like a GO gage, no slight crush fit as I would prefer for loaded rounds, but I only use dummies when I load different bullets to reset my seating die to switch back and forth between them. I have them set up that way for 120PH and 140GK for my daughter's 6.5. If I were using them to prove an action though they would be set up exactly the same as my loaded rounds with that same slight crush fit. All depends on their intended purpose.

    One thing I'm not clear on. Did you mean that after one firing then full length sizing the Prvi case grew .007"? I trust your measurements, but that DOES seem a bit excessive to me. It may even hold the key to solving the puzzle.

    I'm assuming both brands of brass get the exact same treatment, yes? Let's back up to specifics of your case prep. Are you using dry mica lube on the necks to minimize stretching from the expander ball? Is there a squeaking sound as the expander ball pulls through the case neck? Does the operation require more force to withdraw the case from the die (or are you using the new RCBS with enough mechanical advantage to resize a 40mm Bofors shell and can't tell)? What kind of resizing lube are you using on the body of the case? It may be that the slightly different brass alloys of each brand have slightly different friction coefficients and react differently to the steel of the neck expander. One may need the necks lubed and the other brand may not.

    One would think that if the die were out of spec then the Win cases would have the same problem.

    Do both flavors of your fired brass rechamber easily before resizing? Do you have a collet neck sizer? I would think you ought to have some sort of neck sizer for a bolt action regardless if it's conventional, collet, or bushing, just for increased brass life if nothing else.

    All else being equal, I suspect the brass, sounds like it might have been overly annealed and is a tad bit too soft in the neck/shoulder allowing the expander ball to pull and stretch it like taffy. If it is an annealing issue, neck sizing and a few reloads will work harden it back to where it should be.

    I usually have great results and good case longevity with Prvi brass and it is often cheaper to buy it loaded than to buy unloaded brass by other makers from here in the USA. BUT the first and only time (last month) I bought a bag of 100 brand new unloaded Prvi cases (6.5jap) half of them had a rim too thick to fit my shell holder. I have ended up with at least one bad batch of brass from every manufacturer over the years, I guess everyone had a bad day once in a while. I've had no problems at all with the 5 boxes (loaded) I bought to use in my Swede and some are on their 5th loading (still collet neck sizing and haven't needed to trim them yet).

    And I doubt you're ever going to get a 140gr bullet close to the lands with a mil m96. In fact I can seat them so far out in mine that they're too long to fit in the magazine, barely held in the neck, and they still don't reach. I'm thinking long throat = no pressure spikes aka Weatherby. I doubt I could get a 160gr spitzer bullet near the lands even if I could find some to try. Maybe a heavy RN if such a bullet could be had affordably.
    Last edited by versifier; 09-28-2016 at 12:49 PM.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

  5. #5
    Great Master Mike in tx's Avatar
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    Thanks for answering. Here goes.
    1. I checked the fired cases against the PPV factory rounds and they were the same length.
    2. Resized cases stretched .007
    3. Same treatment for both brands and used Unique(Imperial) wax for resizing.
    4. Did not notice any squeaking from the expander ball but was not listening for it specifically.
    5. More force was required to resize than any other cartridge that I reload; a lot more force.
    6. I only have PPV that have not been resized and they slip in like greased bacon.
    7. Last night I thought of ordering a collet die and will be doing so.
    8. I am looking for a 160 grn mould. I only looked quickly but can not find one that is reasonable.
    Again, thanks

    Mike

  6. #6
    Dogs Like Him versifier's Avatar
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    Everyone on the Swede forum says don't try to push a cast bullet faster than 1500fps or so. I have not begun testing cast in mine yet so I don't know. Many of them are just going for target loads with handgun powders though. I have 140 & 170gr moulds that I've been using with a 6.5M/S. http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdis...Firearms-Forum
    http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.p...1ofhv82ng6ac03

    #5 is a red flag. Not sure why but that bothers me as it is an unexplained anomaly. Were the WW cases hard to resize also?

    I suspect that a slightly oversize chamber, normal for a milsurp, might be confusing the issue too.

    Did ALL the Prvi cases stretch .007 or was there variation among them (i.e. some with minimal stretch, some moderate, some excessive)? I am still thinking this is a brass/annealing issue of neck/shoulders too soft.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

  7. #7
    Dogs Like Him versifier's Avatar
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    I will ask Sam over on the Facebook RLB for his opinion.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

  8. #8
    Dogs Like Him versifier's Avatar
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    Sam asks that you post pics of both fired brass and FL sized brass. I'm thinking he's thinking what I'm thinking.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

  9. #9
    Great Master Mike in tx's Avatar
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    I sent pixs by phone. Hope they got through in good shape. Now, I trimmed the cases back to 2.162 +-0.001. Set a dummy round in trimmed and untrimmed case. The trimmed case now goes into the chamber well and the untrimmed case has the same problem. When I resized a case this AM it was 2.162; post resizing it was 2.170. Is it the expander ball doing this? Seems likely to me but I am not sure. Could this be the problem or do I have a short chamber. The specs that I have indicate a case length of 2.165. Go gauge goes in OK and No Go will not. I bought this to rebarrel but the barrel looks good and shoots well and I am happy with it as well as cheap.

    BTW the case that I resized this AM sized easily. What gives?
    Last edited by Mike in tx; 09-29-2016 at 03:01 PM.

  10. #10
    Dogs Like Him versifier's Avatar
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    I don't own a smart phone. (In fact, I don't use a cell phone except in dire emergencies.) You can post them here or there, or I will message you my email and you can them to me that way.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

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