223 load for small deer

[techer101]

federal offers trophy bonded bear claws and partions? which bullets should i use? i can reload as well so any other options would be appreciated as well. i am letting my girlfriend shoot the deer and i am backing up with a 270. it will be a doe max wieght 100lbs!max range 150yds. small but encouragement to get more comfortable with the 270,30-30 or might spring for a 25-06 -- good excuse for a new gun

[versifier]

You're probably not going to like hearing this, but you did ask.
In the hands of an expert marksman who knows to use only a broadside shot at a relatively short range, there are a few options. (That excludes 99% of those considering it, and virtually all new shooters.) .223's are not legal to use in many states for a good reason: in the hands of most hunters, it's a wounder and cannot be relied on to kill deer cleanly. It was designed to wound humans, not to kill. (A wounded soldier uses up a lot more of an enemy's resources than a dead one.) I would be considering .243, .250Savage, .257Roberts, all relatively light recoiling cartridges, but proven deer killers.
While there are indeed several premium bullets in .22cal that are specifically designed for medium game (Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition, and Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claw) the truth is that .22cal is at best a compromise and at worst woefully inadequate for use on deer. (I'm sure a lot of deer have been poached with .22LR's and .22mags, but that doesn't mean you should use them.) I'm also sure that there have been a number of hunters who have used .223's and .22-250's successfully, there are much better choices, most especially for a new hunter. How do you think she'll feel about hunting if she wounds one and it gets away? How would you feel? If you handload, work up some light .30-30 loads and gradually increase the charges over the summer until by fall she will be used to the recoil. Or consider it a good excuse to buy a .243 because neither the 25-06 nor the .270 are low recoil cartridges for a beginner, even if they are a little easier on the shoulder than the .308 or .30-06. If a person is not able to handle the recoil of a cartridge adequate to kill cleanly (without backup), then he or she should stick to varmints and do a lot more target shooting before considering shooting at a deer. This is basic hunter ethics.

[techer101]

i am not worried about her putting it where it counts at all. we have even hunted hogs together and she put a 50grain jhp in the brain at about 90 yds with only using a small tree for a brace. i was looking at the others when boom i got one happened. she can shoot golf balls free hand at 100 yds 39 out of 40 shots. with my bipod she shoots squirrels on the ground at 100-150yds she is very comfortable with the gun which in my opinion is 80% of your ability to shoot sucessful

[versifier]

I do agree with you there. With a rifle, familiarity breeds content. (Sorry, couldn't resist )

But, I still have serious reservations about the caliber itself and its ability to kill cleanly. If she's that good a shot, I don't see why you can start with light loads and bullets in a more adequate chambering and work up gradually. I have taught a lot of kids (and adults!) to shoot that way, and it really builds confidence. The lighter loads don't have to be MOA accurate, either. A paper plate at 50yds and plinking loads is fine to start with. In a few months of regular weekly shooting, you can easily be at 100yds with hunting loads.

Even after 35 years of deer hunting, I wouldn't consider using my .223. (Maybe my .22-250 with 60gr Partitions, but only if it was an emergency and there were no other choices.) Even a pump shotgun with slugs would be a better option, and a 20ga doesn't have too much recoil. I shoot between 3-4000 high power rifle rounds a year, and am quite confident of my ability to put the bullets where they need to go, I simply have too much respect for the game I hunt to consider using a marginal cartridge on it. I am only human, and every shot I make is not a perfect one. We have killed deer with 117gr boolits with a .30-30 at handgun ranges, but it is like hunting them with a .357mag pistol, they have to be within 50yds, and they have to be broadside shots or you've got to have the self control to pass and hope for the right shot later. In other words, hunting within the limits of the loads chosen. But even those two choices will deliver boolits with a large frontal area (meplat) to increase the energy transfer, and they leave bigger holes so you can track more easily if and when necessary. The pointy little .22 bullets are going so fast that they tend to pass right through unless they hit a big bone, and then they often just explode without imparting sufficient damage to kill cleanly or quickly. And, if the deer has a decent layer of fat, it will tend to seal the small holes and leave you with no blood trail at all to follow.

If you have to, you can drive nails with an axe, but that doesn't make it the best tool for the job. There are too many better choices in 6mm, .25, 6.5mm, 7mm that are all pleasant to shoot lots of and can be depended on to do the job better than a .22.

[techer101]

i know one thing with the 223 was noise and i solved that with a good set of ear plugs another is anticipated recoil. she figures loud=ouch. do you know of any good recoil pads that would slide on my savage .270 and marlin 30-30? also i recently got a wieghted gun rest/recoil manager. guess i could get her to shoot with it to get comfortable and then slip on the recoil pad and let her have at it??

[versifier]

That's a good direction to head in. There two options I can suggest right off. The first is the slip-on "boot". A lot of different companies make them - The rubber Pachmeyer(sp?) that I keep in my range bag is over twenty years old and has saved much pain, especially when shooting old Win94's and milsurps with metal buttplates. The other good thing about it is that when used in warmer weather to practice with your deer rifle, it gives the longer length of pull like you get when you put on a thick winter hunting coat. I don't know which brand(s) are preferred - I've only bought the one, though likely I will have to replace it before too much longer.

The other option is a Past recoil supressor that you wear on your shoulder. They come in a bunch of different thicknesses and two styles, some of which are on sale at Midway this month. I just ordered the thickest one for long sessions at the bench testing boolits with a variety of rifles. There is a woman in her seventies at our club that uses one and thinks nothing of shooting a hundred rounds offhand in her .30-06 in an afternoon. (Not even a hint of a flinch, and I don't think she weighs 100lbs rifle and all.) She loves hers and suggested I get one for all the benchwork I've been doing.

As to loud=ouch, there's a lot to that. A .22lr handgun is loud enough to cause a flinch to develop if used without proper ear protection. What I have never been able to figure out is why, when hunting, do you never hear the rifle/ pistol/ shotgun go off, and it never leaves your ears ringing?

I still suggest loading some very light loads to start her off and get her comfortable with the rifle's mechanics and operation. They don't have to be accurate, they just have to go bang and not kick at all. Light bullets and starting charges is all that's needed. A couple of boxes ought to do the trick, then when she knows what to expect, up them gradually, both charge weight and bullet weight. Going from squib loads to hunting loads in one step can make for a serious flinch that will take much time and many hundreds of rounds to overcome.

If you are interested, I have been loading the .30-30 for over 30 years and I have all kinds of loads for it, especially light bullet/boolit varmint loads. When I'm using jacketed bullets in it, I prefer Sierra 125gr FNHP's for deer hunting, and have never bothered with anything heavier than Sierra 150gr FN's. The 125's give you an effective range with the .30-30 of about 150yds, about as far as I can see clearly with the peep sights on the rifle, and they are very easy on the shoulder, too, compared with 150's or 170's. With cast, though, it's a different story, and I will load anything from 117gr up to 180gr, depending on what the rifle shoots best.

[techer101]

we have a marlin 336 i believe and shoot 150 core-loks out to 150 easy we have high mounts (see through) and a 3-9x40mm tasco on it it doesn't kick but is akward for her to hold so she doesn't like it but which of the two would you use for hogs/deer with a 22 cal they would be on the small end on both could i slow them down with hand loads to prevent worthless blow through? i could still keep them in operating velocities fairly easy at 100 yds surely might be a stupid thought but i met a kid up here and went to his place after a good snow for jack rabbits and saw an antelope with a broke leg he shot it at about 125yds with a 50grain jhp completely broadside and it passed completely through with an exit hole the size of a soft ball with an immediate bang flop it removed a piece of rib about 6'' long and removed the meat from 2 or 3 others when it came out after talking to more people from around here have had multiple repeats of this situation some say that is all they use for antelope is a 223 or 22-250!! what do you think

[versifier]

I think there's a lot of difference between an antelope and a deer. I have no problem shooting at a coyote at 400yds with a 55gr bullet, and they can top 100lbs around here. (Not that I hit them at that range very often.) They go down easily compared to a deer. I still don't think a .22 is a good choice for deer when there is any other alternative. When you slow the .22's down, they will not expand at all unless they hit something solid. Then they have less energy to impart. Not that they have much to start with even at high velocities when you are talking a large animal.

With the Marlin, the see-through rings are likely the problem - the stock has a low comb and it will slap the face of someone with the wrong facial structure (like me, and probably her, too) when you make the stretch to see through a scope. It feels like a quick left jab to the face. Not pleasant. Try some low or medium rings. I would go with the Marlin and handloads. Those 125gr FNHP's have dropped 200+ lb. bucks in their tracks, DRT (dead right there). They will surely do the job on a 100lb. doe. Their trajectory is flatter, too, so your point blank range is the same as the effective range - no "hold over" like with the heavier bullets. The hollow points expand wonderfully at .30-30 velocities - that's what they were designed for. They do quite a job on woodchucks (you might call them ground hogs) at 200yds, too, if you aim a few inches high.

[lovedogs]

I must second Versifiers opinion on this one. I've been hunting for just over 52 years now. I'm retired from U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service. And I quit counting deer killed, either in the line of duty or hunting, at just over 200 head. I've also been involved in predator control since '68 and have shot well over my share of varmints. Also, a good number of antelope and elk have been shot in the line of duty and as a hunter. I may not be the most experienced deer slayer in the world but would think my experience would count for something.

While taking deer on National Wildlife Refuges to cull them due to starvation because of gov't mismanagement, not allowing hunting on certain parts of refuges, I often used a .222 rifle. But these were deer so weak from starvation they couldn't even run. And the .222 was used because I could walk up within 50 yds. and shoot them in the brain. This caliber was a little quieter than a bigger boomer, allowing me to walk into a field and shoot several at once without spooking them off. Under these circumstances it was a good choice.

I've shot both deer and antelope with everything from a .22 L.R. to .45-70's and .35 Whelens, and with all varieties of bullets. And I must say I agree with those states who allow only those guns from .243 and up. Granted, a bad hit with anything will allow an animal to get away wounded. But those with more authority will often put them down or, at least, slow them down for a second shot.

Your lady friend, or anyone else, who thinks they're okay because they're a good, cool shot, is in error. How many people have had a deer take a step just as the trigger was pulled? That results in a wounded animal no matter what caliber. But with a greater caliber you should be able to catch up to it and finish it off. Not always so with a .22 cal. As an example, I had a friend who thought the .22-.250 was a great idea on antelope. He shot several too far back. Did they take that step forward? Almost all of them shot in this way ran off so far they might have been lost if they'd been deer, which might have gotten to cover. Even liver shots made it quite a ways with the .22-.250. And that has much more "smack" than your .223. In way of comparison, I've known several who hit deer, larger than antelope, too far back. Depending on the type of gut shot they, too, can go quite a ways. But a liver shot with any larger caliber doesn't let them go very far. In fact, if a deer isn't pushed, it won't go far with a liver shot. They're just too sick and weak shot there. Even with the so-called weak .30-30 I've seen deer lay down within 50 yds. with a liver shot, allowing a follow-up shot.

When a fast .22 centerfire works it's awesome. Even on larger animals, like elk. But when there's a failure it's just as awesome, but in another way. It's really a shame to have them get away wounded and I think we owe them a better death than that. Anyone who disagrees with that shouldn't be allowed to hunt.

The reasoning that recoil or noise bothers inexperienced people isn't a reasonable excuse, either. I've trained dozens of people to shoot and hunt. My take on that is that we should prepare them to shoot an adequate arm. Anyone can begin with a .22 and then work up to a .24 cal. or larger. I've never seen anyone who was properly trained and took this business seriously who couldn't handle even a 7-08. There are many guns and alterations that can be made to accomodate a new hunter.

I hope you will be of good conscience and make the effort necessary to help your lady to be an ethical hunter. Everyone will be happier for it.

[Lloyd Smale]

id say it depends. If the deer in your area are like they are here its a rare one that gets over 150 lbs. Most are in the 100 lb range and a 223 in the hands of someone that can shoot and using say a 60 grain bullet would do fine. If your shooting at 250 lb deer id have to say pass. If your loading little 45-50 grain bullets id have to say pass. If your not willing to pick your shots and pass on a marginal one id say pass as ill about gurantee your not going to get any kind of a blood trail. Ive shot 3 smaller deer with a mini 14 at a max of about a 100 yards and each and every one of the dropped in there tracks like they were hit by the hammer of thor. Does this mean its a great deer rifle? Probably not but it will get the job done. I heard that in texas the .223 caliber guns are one of the most popular deer rifles. Again though there deer are small. As far as the .223 in military use being designed to wound and not kill. Ive never seen that anywhere. the reason the army went with the .223 had nothing to do with the fact the 308 and O6 killed to many people. It was a matter of making a cheaper lighter gun that a soldier could carry more ammo for and give him more firepower. The fact that it doesnt kill well could be easily remedied by loading it with a good bullet rather then the ball bullets the geneva covention jokingly makes them use. It allways blew my mind that they make them use a fmj bullet but will allow a 12 guage with buckshot to be used. I was a soldier and would have to say that if you asked a soldier that has been in combat if he wanted to wound an enemy soldier to get info from him hed laugh his ass off at you. When someone is trying to kill you you want him dead! I guess my thoughts on proper bullets for the .223 in combat have changed some though. With modern warefare alot of times your facing an enemy with kevlar flack jackets and now even some more high tech armor and soft nosed bullets might not be the way to go. The military is finally opening there eyes to the fact they made a mistake by switching to 9mm pistols and maybe they will finally open there eyes and go back to the 30 cal battle rifle. Some of the new 6.5 and 30 rounds show alot of promise as a compromise in power vs recoil and ammo carrying capabilitys.