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Thread: HP 38 for cast 7x57

  1. #11
    Dogs Like Him versifier's Avatar
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    The shattering of the bullet on bone is the clue to what happened and why. Linotype bullets for instance are very, very hard and great for target shooting. Because of their hardness and strength to conform to the rifling and not strip out they can be pushed to much higher velocities than softer alloys. BUT, whenever they hit anything hard (like bone, or a rock, or a metal gong), they shatter completely, just like light match or frangible bullets do. Softer bullets can't be pushed to the same velocities, but when they hit something hard they hold together and through soft tissue hydraulic action causes them to mushroom. The alloy is more critical than the bullet profile (a wide meplat always helps though), which is why you don't want to use anything harder than wheel weight alloy for hunting bullets. I am convinced by experience that the bullet failure you experienced is 100% the fault of the alloy. A neck shot would have failed just as disastrously when it hit a vertebra. A softer bullet would have shattered the rib, sailed right on into the boiler room, done its job properly mushrooming as it made its way through, and dropped the critter in a few seconds.

    I would not give up on cast, but I would focus on using bullets cast of the proper alloy with a better profile. Until you start casting your own (and it is a wonderful addiction) Bullshop will custom cast for you in the proper alloy, has a very good selection of available moulds, and very reasonable prices. Follow the link to them on the Cast Boolits Homepage. They hunt moose and caribou with cast in a wide range of calibers and can give you a lot of practical advice. If I did not cast my own, they would be my first and only choice for hunting bullets. You have a rifle that is extremely accurate with cast and that is a rare and wondrous thing. I would offer to send you some, but I have no 7mm hunting bullet moulds, only one RNGC target. (OTOH, if you get into 30cal, I have three really good ones in 150, 170, and 180gr and can send you some of them to try if you're interested.)

    There is one more important reason for you not to give up on cast. If you have been successful neck shooting with jacketed bullets it says two things about you: that you are an experienced hunter, and that you are an above average marksman. Only hunters with those two key qualities can use that kind of shot effectively and prefer it. My bad experiences have come from hunters who only thought they had those qualities (one of them ignored my advice and blew the neck muscles off the side of a really nice buck with a bullet I cast for him - vertebral ricochet) and it resulted in many, many miles of tracking to finish it and then many, many more miles of dragging it out. To this day I'm grateful he wasn't shooting at a moose, and that he was honorable and ethical enough to insist on following it. We also had lots of help dragging. He learned a good lesson and now, twenty-plus years later, he fills his deer tags regularly with his own cast bullets from his rifles and revolvers. Bad experiences can teach us important lessons. Different tools require different techniques to work best.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

  2. #12
    runfiverun runfiverun's Avatar
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    i don't think dan would even recommend a 7mm cast for hunting.
    i use my 7mm's for the smaller stuff coyotes & rock chucks.
    i have shot my 145's straight through blocks of pine at 100 yds that were over 12" thick.
    after messing with softening the noses etc..
    i will not use my 7's for hunting larger game with cast.
    i have other guns that are much more efficient a 44 mag,357, 45 colt, lever gun is very effective and will shoot to over 100 yds effectively.
    if i am going to hunt the open canyons i take the 7x57 ackley,25-06,etc, and use jacketed.
    remember jacketed rounds were not even invented untill high velocity was, along with smokeless powder.
    i bet the old timers tried lead bullets with the new fangeled powder and calibers and searched for a bettter way.
    30 calibe is about as small as i have even dared try with cast on deer and it was sucsessful but it is still a bit smaller than i really am comfortable with on bad angles.

  3. #13
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    Default HP 38 for cast 7x57

    versifier,

    I understand that the alloy was most likely the reason for the shattering but as we all can agree I was the reason that that round was used.

    I should have found a way to verify that it would have been a more proper projectile.

    Having faith in my rifles ability to dot the "i" out to 200yrds with cast, maybe a false sense of security. I am sure that I can place the round and that it will penetrate, I am just having doubts that the .287 cast is, as many are happy to share, large or potent enough to humanly do the job with a boiler maker hit.
    Bell took a few elephants with the 7x57, but that was at close range with the FMJ military 173 grain RN.

    Though the bullet did not expand, the combination of placement, in the brain and the genetically high blood pressure seemed to be an effective combination.
    But as I'm not an Ivory hunter and I refuse to use FMJ on anything that is not trying to use the same on me, only one of these elements is in my range of possibilities and as we all know the brain is a protected and most unsure target so I chose to go a touch lower.

    I am concerned that the 173 grain, 12.5 from GlenHills will be almost the same as hitting the neck with a 22cal. The bullet will completely penetrate; my concern is will it mushroom or cause enough hydro shock to be effective.
    I know that some have used them for moose and elk with heart/lung shots. I am just questioning them for neck use.

    7x57

  4. #14
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    Default HP 38 for cast 7x57

    runfiverun,

    I have no uncertainty that a 7mm jacketed will drop anything that I aim at, though I would be matching the projectile to the game, 175gr for elk/moose, 154-160gr for mulie, 139-145gr for whitetail. I don't chance possible shots as I am bound against causing suffering.

    You say that cast might not perform well enough? I believe that you already may have answered this in one of your earlier posts, but I do not currently have access to them. What is it that, in your honored opinion, would be the possible reason to avoid them for large game? Could proper placement offset the "size"?



    7x57

  5. #15
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    runfiverun,

    I'll check them when I get to my computer.

    7x57

  6. #16
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    Diameter is your best friend when hunting with cast bullets, because you don't have velocity to impart hydrostatic shock. With a good soft alloy, you can get some expansion to add to it. There are those who wouldn't hunt large game with anything smaller than .45cal, and there is a lot to their assertion that drilling a half inch hole through the boiler room is bound to be effective, but we have had good luck with .30cal FNGC bullets from 150-180gr and .35 cal FNGC and SWCGC bullets cast from wheel weights on deer and the occasional black bear or moose with the heavier bullets. I don't shoot a .44mag (but I do have an excellent mould for it that my friends like a lot), and my shoulder can do without the abuse of .45-70's with heavy hunting loads, however effective they might be. I like the .30-30 (and .308 & -06, but they shoot the same cast bullets at the same velocities) and the .35Rem for large game. For anything bigger than a deer, I would want a .30 cal bullet of at least 180gr (worked well on a fairly large bull moose) but I wouldn't turn up my nose at a 200 or even a 220gr if the rifle shot it accurately. With the .35 cal I would prefer to have a bullet between 200 and 250gr. I would be avoiding any quartering shots, and I would be keeping the range within 100yds and less if possible.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

  7. #17
    Dogs Like Him versifier's Avatar
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    BTW, don't beat yourself up about a mistake in the field. We've all been there and done that, and anyone who tells you he hasn't is full of what makes the corn grow tall.

    I grabbed buckshot instead of bird shot late one night when a gang of raccoons invaded the barn. It wasn't until the next day that I realized how well I had ventilated the barn with only six rounds..... My ex was not impressed, except about the five masked bandits that were no longer raiding the food and decorating the place with trash. It only took me two weekends to replace all the metal roofing and the siding.

    I have helped track and finish more than a few gutshot critters, though only one of them (a big coyote) was my error. It happens. All you can do is the right thing and follow it up as quickly as you can and learn a good lesson from it so you don't do it a second time.
    "Stand your ground.
    Do not fire unless fired upon.
    But if they mean to have a war let it begin here."
    - Capt. Parker, Lexington Militia, April 19, 1775

  8. #18
    runfiverun runfiverun's Avatar
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    after contemplating using jacketed and their construction for quite some time i finally figured out how the velocity and bullet construction was tied together.
    the x57's and 0-6 class of rounds work beyond what it is considered they will. its because they have lower vels not too low but in a proper range for regular bullets to work effectively.
    the 2600 to 2850 range is very effective with regular ole bullets.
    their soft lead and copper case construction allows them to open in a predictable manner,and continue in a straight line without overstressing thier jackets or cores.
    now with cast you either hedge your bet to penetration [very necessary]
    or towards mushrooming of some sort,you may get passthrough or not [bad] as the exit wound is usually 5 times larger then the entrance wound is, even with very little bullet upset.
    thats where my recommendation for not using cast in the 7 mm's comes from.
    placing the boolit in a shoulder will anchor the animal. but......
    and a shot through the heart/lung area is just not effective enough because there just isn't enough performance inside the animal to keep the chase short.
    i truly will defend the x57 till the end of times but it just has it's limits and cast is where it's way too marginal for me.
    besides that a box of 139 gr interlocks is 20 bucks and i use it for deer/elk and moose if i ever draw the tag.
    i have shot deer with some very small cast boolits before and was pretty surprised at the results but i had a flat nose complete penetraton and a good exit hole
    [98 gr 313 sized boolit from a revolver] on a wounded deer at 70 yds. what i call the keith shot.
    i really don't have much else to add it's your call really and i have fully considered using one of my x57's but finally narrowed it down to the 8x57,358 win or 30-30 if i really need to use a rifle.
    but will take the levergun everytime as they are really at an advantage over the smaller cals when cast is used.

  9. #19
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    Default HP 38 for cast 7x57

    runfiverun and versifier,

    Thank you both for your input on my question. I have another for which I am asking you opinions.

    I have been thinking, reading and researching a way to soften the nose of the bullet while retaining the hard casting in the bearing section.

    I have come upon: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/pa...ll_charges.htm

    "A Paco secret...

    Here’s a trick I write about often...to get soft nose and hard body cast bullets, cast them hard and hot, frosty bullets are better no matter what the experts say... drop them from the mold into water to temper....then place your bullets standing in water to their shoulder just above the top crimp groove, so the nose is exposed....take a butane torch and run it over the noses sticking out of the water...this detempers just the noses, so you in effect have a soft nose-hard body, cast bullet. It takes a little practice...but as soon as you see the bullet noses change color at all, pull the flame...or the nose will slump over...it doesn’t take much flame time, especially on small caliber bullets. Cast bullets made this way will resist fouling but will expand in any size animal....from rabbits on up."

    I am hoping that this will improve expansion of the 22BHN 160gr bullets nose to allow it retain 2100+ and expand from its .287 significantly increasing its effectiveness.
    Thank you in advance.

    7x57

  10. #20
    runfiverun runfiverun's Avatar
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    it works.
    it returns the alloy to it's original form.
    a mix of 50ww's and 50 pure or as soft as you got with tin [for toughness]
    waterdropped then followed by the method paco mentions [not invents btw] will allow the nose to expand. it also makes it chancey that a boolit will bend/slump in this area and veer off course in an animal.
    the funny thing is that a long jacketed bullet has more length to help it open up and penetrate,and retain weight.
    whereas a cast boolit of length just gives it more length to pass through things.
    the softening of the nose works well. actually it does kinda act like a nosler partition, till the nose shears off or it stops the boolit.
    you have to watch your alloy very closely when softening the nose you will se it start to change color first then it will try to bead up the tin in the alloy as soon as you see the slight shift of from grey to silver beads you need to have the heat gone or you will slump the nose and ruin the boolit.
    and don't tip them back into the water or you just done nothing.

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