"Fire Forming" Brass???

I have heard many people talk about "Fire Forming" 30-06 brass in thier 8MM mausers. I am not sure what this means or how to do it. Could anybody help me with info. Do I just fire the smaller daimeter '06 out of the 8MM to let the pressure form the case???

I have a mauser and since the 8mm surplus is drying up I need to find a way to get some reloadable brass, I know there is commercial out there but it's $$$ and I have about 4K rounds for my '06. I have number punches to change the ID on the case head so it never gets confused when on the range.

to reform 06 to 8 mauser
you have to run it through your full length sizer, i like to take my primer punch outta the sizer first.
then you trim it to length.
then you run it through your sizer again with your punch.
if you are using older military 0-6 brass you may lose some in this process, unless you anneal it.
and you will want to use a lower powder amount if the brass is heavier.
and ream your primer pockets.
now for the fire-forming process, you need to make sure that your re-formed brass will chamber [ part of the second sizing process]
and you shoot it through the rifle, some do this different ways i just make sure i have a safe load, and fire it.
now that you have fired it in your rifle your brass has taken a "set" and is a good fit to your chamber, so for the next few firings you can just neck size the cases to hold your bullet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Huntnjunkie

Do I just fire the smaller daimeter '06 out of the 8MM to let the pressure form the case???

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GOOD GOD NO!!!!

...and welcome to the forum!!!

r5r's explanation of the process is perfect. I like to use starting loads for fire forming and light bullets, but any safe charge with a bullet of the proper diameter will do the trick.

It is not a difficult operation to make 8x57 cases out of -06. After all, it is the parent case.

Thanks all for the info and I look forward to much more time on this site. I wish I knew about long ago.

I will work on a couple cases and giv eit a whirl, let you know how the final product comes out.

I have never tried it with the round you asking about, but I do it a lot with a couple of other rounds. 223 converted to 7mm TCUu and 30-30s converted to 38-55s

We have found that the best way to do it is to pull the bullet out of the case you are starting with (if using live rounds) and only put back in a little bit of powder, about 4 or 5 grains Varget or 4895.
Load in a low cost bullet you don't mind wasting and fire it out the barrel you are wanting to fit. You want to start with a load thats a bit weak and move up a bit until find the load that best swells the casing out to fit with out splitting the end of the case. Using fully loaded cases willl ruin a lot of brass and make a lot very thin cased shells that could damage your gun.:coffee:

Bill,
I really have to disagree with you and it is a safety issue.

The accepted method is to run the case into the new sizing die and expand the neck with the die's expander ball (if it has to be opened a lot, sometimes it is done in two or even three stages with progressively larger expanders) then it has to be loaded with a bullet of the correct diameter. It should ideally be annealed after fire forming.

Firing a bullet that is too small stresses the brass way beyond its physical tolerences, and depending on the action is a really good way to get a faceful of burning propellant gasses. You may have been getting away with it using low charges, but you have been lucky. It is a good way to destroy an older lever or bolt action. I have seen the results more than once over the years, and there was one serious injury. For the brass, neck, shoulder, or case body splits and head or body separations are the more common risks, even if the brass is carefully annealed.

Doing it the safe way is easy enough that it is not worth the risk.

Thats Funny, we have done several hundred of these and never had that problem. Its actual the only way I have found 7mmTCU cases

Try lubing inside the necks and running them through the 7TCU sizer, then a light fireforming load, and annealing after. The cases will last way longer and you won't have any splits or blowouts.

wow.
i just saw this... i always try to get a case as close as possible to the chamber size before firing anything in it.
just seeing a 22 bullet skidding down the bbl sideways in my head is enough.
and secondary explosion??
it ain't that hard to reform brass if you are careful.
i have never had to anneal a piece of brass ever.
yes, i know how ,and i do have the tools. but by not taking short-cuts you can do a good job
reforming brass in all kinds of shapes and sizes.

Well I stand corrected, I gues I better go pull apart a whole bunch of shells that I have made over the years and go buy some more toys.

What should I do with the four hundred rounds of 38-55 I already have setting here that I already made out of 3030's?. They shoot so good I hate to throw them away.

I do like the idea of buying more toys and trying it another way though.

Knowing full well how much time you have spent working on them I would like to be able to tell you to go ahead and shoot them, but even though .38-55 operates at much lower pressure than 7TCU, in all honesty I would not do it myself and cannot in good conscience tell you they are safe to shoot. I have been taught that they are not and have seen the results of blown cases. (Once, a dead rifle and a shooter with pieces of it embedded in face and hand.) Even if just the case blows without damaging the gun, a faceful of propellant gases leaves you looking like you are trying out for a part in The Jolson Story. Having once been severely burned, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, ever. When it's Wile E. Coyote it's amusing, but when you are in the emergency room there's nothing funny about being crisped.

But, the cases may be salvageable as .30 or .357 Herrett's - the weakened portion of the case neck/shoulder would be cut off when they are shortened.

Sorry, but since I have been shooting these for years and never had a problem I can't intirely agree with you on this one. The amount of powder that was used to make this was and is so small that the report is barely more than if you were shooting just the primers. Actualy the idea is to use such a small load that the opposit problem has allways been more prevalent. Cases were under expanded. I can agree to your method but you seem to have missed the emphasis on using a very small load to creat them. Also the guns I have been doing this in are single shot breakdown style rifles with a very strong breach. Yes I agree that I wouldn't and have never done it in a lever action as they probably are a lot weaker and not a good canidate this. On this I thing we should agree to disagree and probably shouldn't recomend it for others.

The argument is probably moot in this instance as an 8mm Muaser is significantly shorter than an '06 with a shoulder that starts 0.129" shorter. I think you would have trouble finding an 8X57 that would chamber an '06, if it would, I'd think you'd have much bigger issues with headspace than having to worry about fire forming.

With the extremely light loads did your primers back out? I've had them do that once when I loaded up some light loads of IMR3031 to fireform some cases in my 30-06 a.i.

I have done the .30-06 to 8 mm thing and found that by annealing the brass before firing I had almost no splits. I would think it depends how much the brass has been worked. Ideally, start with new brass or once fired but ya can't always be choosy.

I tried using a candle to anneal like someone suggested but that didn't do much good so wound up doing it the NRA book way; Standing them in a pan of water 1" deep and heating with a propane torch until the neck turned cherry red. Then tip them into water. Never saw one fail to grip the bullet after doing that & if it works, why change.

I knew a guy that made all of his .375 Win cases out of .30-30 by firing a load consisting of a round ball using a small charge of bullseye. I like to get the pressure up there myself or for sure you get smoky necks. That is the gas blowing back so why take chances? People do it with cornmeal but our range wouldn't like that I think. That's just my opinion based on my experience.

This thread needs to stay friendly. Don't have vast experiance in fire forming other than K Hornet from factory, 270 from 06, 308 from O6, and 243 from 308. That said, with the exception of the K-Hornet, have always annealed befor forming. Maybe I didn't need to, but it has been my practice based on the advise of some of the guys years back with more experiance than me. If I didn't anneal befor I formed, I would most definately do so after I formed and befor I trimmed when necessary. I have also gone to neck sizing with the lee dies for about 3-4 loads and then full length resize after the third or fourth loading. I do not load hot because I have almost never found max loads to be the most accurate in most of my rifles. When going from large to smaller necks it will almost always be necessary to inside ream, and if mil brass like 308 to 243, case capacity will be reduced. Have always been cautious when fire forming to seat blts into the lands.
Just my opinion(s)!
1Shirt!:coffee:

Isn't it correct procedure to mfr. a cartridge(new brass),fire it,clean it, reload it(neck size only)and your done?

I got some old Military 30-06 brass that was never loaded still in the cardboard boxes. I have them sitting just in case. I do have a bunch of military 30-06 that I picked up from a custom gunsmith for 4 cents a round about last october. I've been using them to do 8mm brass since one they aren't headstamped 30-06 so they won't get mixed and two 8mm mauser brass is about 54 cents a round. I went and spoke to a gunshop and he made me a jig out of a piece of old barrel. so I take the old brass and run it through my 30-06 die to ensure that it fits right in my jig. then I use a vice to hold the small jig and slide the shell in using a hobby saw for brass to cut the shell down. Then I trim up the rough edge and chamfer then run them through my 8 mm dies ensuring that the entire shell has been through. My son's attempt at helping me had done a few that weren't quite all the way into the die and they weren't easy to close the bolt with them in the chamber. I use about a mid load and 150 grain hornady for the first firing. I don't do this with a spanish mauser, which only has two locking lugs. I use either the german or the turkish since the turks have three locking lugs just like the german. Turkish are made to german specs on German machines in turkey and from what I've heard were usually overseen by a german. German Mausers here run about 300 bucks. Turks I have bought for about 145-175.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Huntnjunkie

I have heard many people talk about "Fire Forming" 30-06 brass in thier 8MM mausers. I am not sure what this means or how to do it. Could anybody help me with info. Do I just fire the smaller daimeter '06 out of the 8MM to let the pressure form the case???

I have a mauser and since the 8mm surplus is drying up I need to find a way to get some reloadable brass, I know there is commercial out there but it's $$$ and I have about 4K rounds for my '06. I have number punches to change the ID on the case head so it never gets confused when on the range.

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I have built several rifles leverguns ,rolling blocks bolt actions ect. Most of the time you start out with a brand new barrel. The last thing you want to do is run a bunch of junk ammo down it before it is broke in properly. So that brings me to fireforming. When I cut a new chamber I use the same reamer to make a fireforming die. I use a grade 8- 7/8-14 bolt. Wild cats, obsolete cartridges, or just to save wear and tear on the chamber throat I have just adopted the following method for all my fireforming chores. First you have to build a fireforming tool. Its a very simple device that employs a spring loaded firing pin and a receptical to receive a trim die for your caliber , or newly fabricated dies . When fabricating fireforming die make sureyou drill your pilot hole for the reamer all the way through the complete length of the die blank (exaust pipe) and set it so you will have zero headspace and fits you gun when you are done. Now that you have the tools in hand now we get to making the brass. In your case I woud start with virgin brass or known once fired commercial brass. If not it will have to be annealed for at least 1 inch. Military brass is is much to thick, as you are trimming a good portion of the case down and the closer you get to the body of the case the thicker it get and much more difficult to manage. Set up your full length sizer die (expander removed for now) Run the cases in the die stopping just short of setting the case shoulder. Trim the cases with a tubing cutter and leave a tad long. now set up and trim to correct overall length. If you are going to use the rifle to fireform, set the case back in the press and work you sizer to set back the shoulder to the right spot. You should just feel a slight resistance when you close the bolt. Now the fun part, prime your cases and charge with 8 grains of bullseye to start with, if the shoulders aren't sharp increase the charge in 1/2 grain increments. Next fill the rest of the case full of cream of wheat to just at the base of the neck, fill the rest with a plug of wax or cotten ball and tamp tight. Now fire the case and examine it if the shoulders are nice an sharp you are done. The idea is to build enough pressure to form the case to the chamber, sqib loads light projectile loads ect ., are not proper procedures for fireforming. If anyone wants pictures of my firefoming tool I would gladly upload them if I can figure out how.
I hope this helps

Thanks
Doug

Welcome to RLG sharpshooter.

That was a very interesting post and I want to learn more about your methods. The idea of a special fireforming device is an intriguing one that I have never encountered before. Please tell us more about it and definitely post some pictures. This is a brilliant idea that is definitely worth exploring.

To post a photo, After you click "Reply", scroll down from the "Reply to Thread" box that appears to the "Additional Options" box. Click on "Manage Attachments". Be aware that photos have a maximum file size and those sizes are listed for the different file formats. You may need to downsize the photos with Photoshop or other photo software before you are able to post them. When in doubt, ask a teenager. ;)

Well lets see if this works, the computer is much harder to run than a dividing head. The big piece with the shell sticking in it was my first die....a 38-72 winchester. the die is soft steel so I made it beefier. The others were made from grade 8 bolts which is super tough stuff. they include 358, 40-82, 303,25 ackley krag and so on. to get zero head space you chamber the die so the shell is flush with the bottom of the die. As you see in the pictures there is a bushing that goes into the die receptical and is fitted over the firing pin. insert the case to be formed into the die screw it into the recepticle, hold it out at arms length pull the stiker back, release...and kaboom (hearing protection required) also I might ad under no circumstances should this tool ever be fitted with live projectile ammo, it would be bad very bad. the design is strait forward and tolerences are relitive to what you want. The main spring on mine is from a hi-power recoil spring

Happy forming

Doug

If you don't have the tooling, George Nonte used an old receiver (with stock...:)) and cut down barrels.
Such short barreled contraptions are of course prohibs in Canada, but an old junker in 8mm with a good chamber would do.

Nonte might also have been the one who argued that water under pressure would also work, in a device similar to the one used for Berdan depriming (hammer+punch+die).... if you live in a non-leaky condo...:)