Rifle Neck/Shoulder Sizing Problems During Reloading

[LETsRifleLoading]

I am a recent entrant into the world of reloading. I have done mostly pistols, but have also tried my hand at rifle cartridges - 25-06 mainly.

I have an old Mouser Sporter I received from my father-in-law that I have been reloading for.

Here is my issue - I have reloaded around 100 rounds, and when I was at the range the other week, the first 15 of 20 I tried didn't fire! The primer was dimpled, but the round did not go off. A few of them fired after trying a second time, but for the most part the rounds simply didn't fire.

I checked the firing pin and it is clean and properly lubricated.

I then tried factory loads, and every one fired.

I talked with a gunsmith at a range I frequent and he said I may have resized the shoulder just enough that the round "moves" in the breach preventing the firing pin to strike with enough force to set the primer off.

Has anyone else ever heard of this? If so, is the brass so much junk now? Do I simply pull the bullet, powder, and primers and scrap the rounds I have loaded?

I haven't found anyone who has ever had this issue, so I have no idea what to do at this point.

Thanks for your help.

[Hellrazor]

Did you reload brass that was fired in your 25-06 or was it from someone else?
Did you full length size them?

[fryboy]

the "moves" you mention is termed "headspace", and that is entirely possible , it can also be caused by incorrect primer seating , if the primer isnt seated fully and set then the firing pin's impact pushes it deeper into the primer pocket , quite often a second hit of the pin ignites it , and ...it could be a combination of both
for best results in a bolt action and when there's only one gun of that caliber being reloaded it's generally best to size as little as possible, quite often this prolongs case longevity, rifle chambers vary if you've sized the cases down too far they're not trash per se but they would require necking up to a larger caliber and then back down leaving a little false shoulder for it to head space on . you'd have to pull the disassemble the rounds and pull the bullets of course

[versifier]

A mauser action has a controlled feed wherein the heavy claw extractor firmly holds the rim of the case. If the cases were resized with the shoulder set back too far it the case could not slide forward into the extra chamber length as long as the extractor is functional. So something remains unexplained and we shall have to seek clues to solve the mystery.

First please tell us about the rifle, history, etc. Factory sporter or sporterized mil action?

Then we need to know about the brass you used and its history.

Lastly we need to know what kind of tooling you used and the methods of loading it.

Tell us the whole story and we will find the clues in it we need to help you figure it out, or it will generate more questions and we'll get to the bottom of it.

Remember what it says on the cover of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, "Don't Panic". Something is indeed strange here, but it is not unsolvable with enough information.

[Kirbydoc]

Yes I have heard of it happening.
Everything said above but the first thing I would check is to see if the primers were seated deeply enough. Sometimes a primer not seated deeply enough will be driven forward by the firing pin to a more correct seating depth and not ignite because the force delivered to it is used up moving the primer.
The least likely scenario although it sometimes happens is primers with no priming compound or maybe no anvil.
Check some primers you have to see if they look OK (have priming compound and anvil correctly installed) then check the seating depth to make sure primers in reloaded cartridges you haven't tried yet to see if primers are seated about 1/1000" below the case head.

[LETsRifleLoading]

Yes, all the brass is factory that I have fired myself.
Yes, I full length resized them using RCBS dies.

[LETsRifleLoading]

OK, I may be getting the jist of this posting (and then maybe not).
I'll try and answer all the questions here in the hopes that you can help me figure this out.
As far as I can tell, all the primers are set correctly. (CCI primers). When I first had the problem, I did try and re-fire some of the rounds, and a few did fire, but most did not.
As for the rifle history - I received this from my father-in-law. Unfortunately, he has passed, so I can't ask him about where he got his hands on it. I had to have it restocked because he originally had the stock cut down for his wife.
The person who put the stock on it told me it was a mouser action, but whether factory or customized I have no idea.
As for the loads - I am using an RCBS Rock Chucker with RCBS dies and loading in batches by hand (not progressive).
I was having problems getting rounds to chamber/go into battery. I finally discovered I had to load from the magazine and not simply put the round in the chamber. I tell you this to also say that I managed to jamb a few rounds into the breach and needed to use a cleaning rod to get them out. During this I also discovered some of the bullets were only lightly seated as the cleaning rod pushed them into the brass.
I also have Lee dies for my pistols, and they have four dies per caliber, whereas my RCBS only had three. In talking with some friends who load mostly pistols, they mentioned the fourth die was a "factory resizing" die which ensured the rounds were uniform diameter after all the handling of reloading. I obtained a fourth die for the 25-06 and used it to ensure the bullets were cramped securely.
So, there you have everything thus far.
I eagerly await your continued pondering.

[fryboy]

lolz @ 4th die
in a rifle set most are two die sets , a decapper/sizer and a seater/crimper , a 3 die set from most makers ( sans lee ) would add a neck sizing only die , lee makes a factory crimp die ( FCD ) in rifles this in no way resizes the whole shebang ,it uses a collet to "squish" the neck in a crimp , a crimp btw that looks much like winchester's factory crimp

about the "I was having problems getting rounds to chamber/go into battery. I finally discovered I had to load from the magazine and not simply put the round in the chamber. I tell you this to also say that I managed to jamb a few rounds into the breach and needed to use a cleaning rod to get them out" ...
sounds like in essence the extractor wasnt engaging , this one makes me say huh ? even tho i can picture it in my mind it sure makes me want to look at the bolt tho that doesnt have much to do with the going bang problem , i'm thinking that this caused by the case not starting att he bottom of the bolt and doesnt slide up into the extractor ( bolt close in such cases ? )

back to the meat of the matter ... as stated a primer not fully seated often sounds like what you described but conversely a deep seated primer can also cause problems , seating primers while seemingly simple is actually a fine art , too deep and one can actually crack the priming compound pellet thus rendering it mostly junk , it's usually less common than the shallow set primer , in most cases the shallow set primer will ignite upon subsequent attempts to fire it , the crushed pellet however will show a good firing pin indentation but fail to ignite
( how's that for more mud ? ;) )

[LETsRifleLoading]

@fryboy -

I took the rounds that didn't fire, removed the bullet and powder out, and marked them as DNF (Did Not Fire) while I figured out what was going on.
When I get a chance I will pull out a primer or two and see what the "backside" of the primer looks like. That may indicate if the primer was too deep, thus cracking the priming compound.

More to follow..........

[fryboy]

If you decap live primers make sure to go slow on the ram and for pete's ( and safety's ) sake make sure you have eye protection on when doing so
usually a too deep or a too high ( not quite set ) primer is readily apparent, a straight edge across the case head would show either one , ideally they should contact the bottom of the pocket and barely be below flush

[versifier]

Lee pistol factory crimp dies do indeed have a resizing ring to ensure chambering in case the bullet seats all caterwhompus, the rifle dies do not. The rifle factory crimp dies all use a collet style crimp and case length is much less critical than with a roll crimp.

I would first ask about your priming setup. The press-mounted primer arm or a separate unit? Setting primers properly is the second most exacting operation in handloading, after dropping powder. It's easy to crush a primer by seating it overly hard and with the impressive leverage of that press (I have been running a RC for close to forty years) you have almost no "feel" for when the primer just bottoms out in the pocket. And there is no way to set a limit to the depth as you can with a ram prime or bench unit.

Then I would ask about the process you used to set up the sizing die. There are tolerances in both die and shell holder. Sometimes when the numbers are against you and you proceed to set the die as per instructions it produces a round too short for the chamber. With a little patience and some unsized brass you can set the FL sizer up to the rifle. You might also consider a Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die to increase your brass life. The less you work the brass the longer it lasts.

Sometimes rifles are short or long chambered also, that's what headspace gages are for. Both a die set too short and a chamber a bit too long would case that issue, though the long chamber would also have caused problems with the factory ammo and it did not, so I am less inclined to suspect any problem with the rifle. So far I am leaning towards an ammunition related cause, either a primer too high or too low or a sizing die out of adjustment.

[LETsRifleLoading]

@fryboy -
Absolutely will use caution when de-priming the DNF rounds.
As you mentioned, the primes are even across the face, and I am confident they are set properly. Just flush or slightly below flush.

[LETsRifleLoading]

@versifier -
I hand prime all my brass. I never did set up the priming arm on my RC.
As for the process used to set up the die, that is where I am really a novice. I usually take a factory load and set my die to just "touch" the round. Then perhaps a 1/8 to 1/4 turn.
I do have the correct shell holder.
As you mentioned, the real trick is to learn the right "feel" to get things adjusted correctly.

[versifier]

You can still overdo it with a hand tool if you put too much ooomph into it, but you have much more feel with a hand tool.

"Correct" shell holder is a matter of luck on occasion. But let's leave that for now. I think the setup is a likely culprit. (Maybe not, but it's easy enough to check if it is or not and scratch it off the list of possibilities.)

I will explain how I set up FL sizers for bolt action rifles. There are other methods that work well too, but this has served me well. Be aware that if you are loading for more than one rifle of the same chambering you will have to find a setting as explained below that works in all of them if you are going to use the same dies set for all of them.
1. You need the rifle, unloaded, handy.
2. You need a batch of fired-in-the-rifle but unsized cases.
3. Unlock the lock ring on the sizing die and back it up the die a few turns. Lube the die's expander ball. Install the die and shell holder in the press.
4. Lube the cases. :mrgreen: (If you don't know why Mr. Green is smiling here, order a stuck case remover kit. Sooner or later it will come in handy.)
5. Raise the press ram all the way. Screw the die down until it touches the shell holder then back it off two full turns.
6. Size a lubed case. Wipe off the remaining lube. Load it into the rifle's magazine and feed it into the chamber. It should not fully chamber. Put the case aside. Screw the die down a quarter turn, take another lubed case and size, clean, and attempt to chamber it as before. If it does not chamber (and it probably won't) continue the process until the the case chambers cleanly and the force needed to close the bolt fully is the same as needed for a new factory round. Set the die's lock ring for this new setting and size the rest of the lubed cases. Then go back and relube the "rejects" and set their shoulders back to where the others in the batch are.
7. Measure the cases after you have cleaned them post-sizing. Trim them all uniform or to min if any are over max in length. Chamfer/deburr the necks.
8. Prime and load as usual.

[Mongchi]

I can't use CCI primers in my Ruger SP101 357Mag. I did a trigger job to lighten the trigger pull to 9lbs and if I use CCI' or Remington primers I'll get a Click-No-Bank. I use both CCI and Remington in my Glock, Beretta, and any of my Blackhawks.

I would look at the dimple from the firing pin. Compare the Factory that shot fine with the reloads. Federal and Winchester primers are softer and my be more forgiving.

[LETsRifleLoading]

Well, sorry for the silence for a while, life got busy and sluthing my rifle issues had to wait. Here is the update, which actually surprised me:
Sunday I spend the afternoon at the range with my son - he was shooting my 308 and I was testing the 25-06. I had a box of Hornady factory loads and an equal number of my reloads. I expected to find the factory loads fire and my reloads go "click."
To my surprise every one fired!
The only thing I have done since I first had this issue was take the bolt out and clean and lube it.
A new issue cropped up Sunday in that after firing, the bolt was very stiff to open.
I took the rifle to a gunsmith today and he looked it over.
Before I start, one thing he told me is the piece is a commercial mouser, not a sporter. Shows how much I know about this rifle. That is a whole other story.
For troubleshooting, he first took the bold apart and two small pieces of what look like pine needles fell out! I have no idea how they got in there, especially after I cleaned the disassembled bolt in a sonic bath, but if they were floating around inside they certainly could have slowed the bolt enough to prevent a solid strike on the primer.
My reloads were within specs of the factory loads. There was a possible indication on the fired brass that my headspace may have been incorrect. However, the smith checked with a go/no go gauge and the spacing was fine. He even cut into an expended brass round to see if there were cracking near the base, which would be caused by a headspace problem. All was fine.
He checked the bolt wear and fit to see why there was stiffness unlocking the bolt after firing, but everything looked fine.
The only thing he really did was a slight filing of the stock where the bolt might have been rubbing. If the stiffness begins to bother me, or gets worse, he recommended polishing the bolt where the cam rides to ease the movement.
Other than that, the mystery seems to have resolved itself.346
I have tried to attach a photo of four primers which have slight dimples and did not fire, and the offending pieces of foliage which came out of the bolt assembly.
This was a very interesting issue, and I truly appreciate all those who gave inputs.
I especially appreciate the guidance on resizing the brass. I hope to get some loading done this coming weekend, and will certainly try the suggested steps.

"It's called hunting and not killing for a reason!"

[versifier]

Great news! I'm glad it was such a simple solution and that it didn't take major efforts to figure it out. I have seen the wrong lube solidifying in cold temps, once a milsurp bolt that was full of cosmoline and didn't get cleaned when the rest of the rifle did, and I have discovered all kinds of stuff that somehow found its way into the damnedest places inside of actions (especially lever-guns), but evergreen leaves inside the bolt causing an intermittent problem like that is one for the book. Thanks for sharing not only the problem, but also the followup. I'm never too old to be surprised and learn something new. :mrgreen: