New to reloading

[oldmarine]

Just getting started and the questions are mounting. So, please excuse the rookie questions. :-) How do I determine if a round should be "roll" crimped, or "taper" crimped. I'm starting on .38 spl. Recently finished 158 gr. loads, and I want to start loading for 110 gr. XTP.
Thanks in advance.
R

[versifier]

Welcome to the Guide.

There is no such thing as a dumb question in any endeavor when a serious mistake could be fatal, so ask away whenever. That's why we're here. There is, as you are finding out, a surprising amount of information to be digested in the learning process, and you will keep learning as long as you continue stuffing cartridge cases. You'll still have questions twenty years from now, but they will get more detailed and complicated as you gain experience.

That is not necessarily a simple question. All revolver rounds should be crimped for consistent ignition, hot or mild, and to prevent the bullets from being "pulled" during recoil and sticking out the front on the cylinder, binding the cylinder and inspiring the creation of innumerable new curse words in a variety of different languages. You have three crimp options, not two: roll, taper, and collet. Each has its upsides and downsides.

Roll crimping requires all cases to be of the same length, the one the die has been set for, for an even and consistent crimp on all the cases. Otherwise velocities will be erratic. Growing cases is not generally a problem for straightwall revolver cases like it is for bottleneck rifle cases, and neither is roll crimping once the die is set correctly. They work best when the bullet has a cannelure on it. The upsides are a very firm (if desired) crimp and the need not to buy a separated die.

Taper crimping is most commonly used on auto pistol cases that need to index on the case mouths but still must be crimped to prevent telescoping during the feeding cycle. A roll would prevent that indexing and rely on the pistol's extractor to keep the case from moving too far in and beyond the firing pin strike. They are also made for just about every cartridge, and many prefer them over the roll crimp because they are less likely to collapse a case neck and shoulder if set too deep. Like the roll, they require the cases all be the same length for the same reason. They will not deliver as firm a crimp as a roll, so of your two options, I would stick with the roll crimp.

BUT.....

Your third option appeared on the loading scene more recently than the other two. More properly called a collet crimp, but in practice usually referred to as a "Factory" crimp as that is Lee's trade name for them. (Because there are three different styles of Lee Factory Crimp dies, I prefer to describe them by how they work. I find it less confusing.) With revolver and bottleneck rifle FC dies when the case is pushed into the die, a collet closes around the neck and crimps the case radially. Case length is not as critical as long as the case mouths are within the crimping band of the collet. Collet dies do not require that the bullet have a cannelure, making them much more versatile, especially on rifle cases. Revolver FC dies also have a carbide ring at their bases that slightly resizes the case body with seated bullet to prevent bulged cases that won't load into the cylinder. The sizing ring makes them ideal for jacketed handgun loads, but they can be problematic when cast bullets of larger diameter are used. (Pistol FC dies are taper crimp dies with the carbide ring, and they also suck for the larger diameter cast bullets.) The rifle FC dies have collets but do not have the carbide ring and are just fine with cast bullets. Personally, I use them whenever I am loading jacketed pistol or revolver bullets, and on any rifle rounds requiring a crimp. I hate roll crimps with a passion and normally use them only on cast revolver rounds. I much prefer to crimp as a separate operation from bullet seating as I get better results. I would recommend you try one for all jacketed handgun rounds, and for all your rifle rounds (all cast and some jacketed, depending on type of action) that require a crimp, or that benefit accuracy-wise from being crimped. I think it is one of John Lee's two best inventions (the other is the collet neck sizer for rifle cases). I think of the years before they came out as the Dark Ages.

[Kirbydoc]

oldmarine a great big welcome to the board. Glad to have you here. :mrgreen:
I am humbly with great respect for Versifier going to try to define some terms for you:
Cannelure: A grove in the bullet usually knurled with ridges in a jacketed bullet. Very seldom seen in lead bullets.
Roll crimp: A crimp placed with a part of the die that actually rolls the case mouth into the bullet. In order for this to work properly there needs to be a crimp groove or cannelure in the bullet and the die must be carefully set (as stated by Vers) to put that roll crimp in the groove.
Collet: A set of metal "fingers" that are generally pushed inward as you pull the lever by a special "Factory Crimp" die. (Like Versifier I really like these on bottle-necked rifle cartridges).
One very important note here: KEEP CAREFUL RECORDS on a log like this one: http://www.alliantpowder.com/downloads/centerfire.pdf
I had a beautiful .45 acp load that I didn't record early on and I have never been able to duplicate it because I didn't keep good records.
And when you try out the loads a log book. Here are some references:
http://gunloads.com/album.php?albumid=11

[versifier]

Don't go getting too respectful KD. I need a fan in my bathroom too. [smilie=s:

I have seen cannelures on swaged lead bullets, though never on a mould (doesn't mean they don't exist, but I bet they'd be a real PITA to machine). Most cast bullet designs have a specific groove to crimp into, sometimes more than one with the rifle bullets. With a collet crimp the grooves and cannelures are not so necessary and you can often ignore them and seat the bullet out as far as you want, as long as it will feed and chamber.

I like GL's downloadable logs and targets, thanks for reminding us. I came up with my own page design when I started out, all handwritten. About twenty years back I designed a page similar to the GL one that I print out when I need them. My loading logs are in loose leaf notebooks. I have records going back to the late 70's. Each entry has a batch number that starts with the log number: 3-462, etc. I put that number on every box of loaded rounds, too, so if there is a problem, something I need to make a note of, or I need to duplicate it I can look it up any time. There is also a section in my log book listing all the firearms I load for and each of the loads I have worked up for them, as the logs are all sequential and I have never cross-referenced them. I have never computerized them and never will - notebooks don't crash like hard drives.

[oldmarine]

Thanks so much for your explanation and the time you took to explain this to me. Now, if I can only retain half of the information you've given me!!! Have a great day. R.
Welcome to the Guide.

There is no such thing as a dumb question in any endeavor when a serious mistake could be fatal, so ask away whenever. That's why we're here. There is, as you are finding out, a surprising amount of information to be digested in the learning process, and you will keep learning as long as you continue stuffing cartridge cases. You'll still have questions twenty years from now, but they will get more detailed and complicated as you gain experience.

That is not necessarily a simple question. All revolver rounds should be crimped for consistent ignition, hot or mild, and to prevent the bullets from being "pulled" during recoil and sticking out the front on the cylinder, binding the cylinder and inspiring the creation of innumerable new curse words in a variety of different languages. You have three crimp options, not two: roll, taper, and collet. Each has its upsides and downsides.

Roll crimping requires all cases to be of the same length, the one the die has been set for, for an even and consistent crimp on all the cases. Otherwise velocities will be erratic. Growing cases is not generally a problem for straightwall revolver cases like it is for bottleneck rifle cases, and neither is roll crimping once the die is set correctly. They work best when the bullet has a cannelure on it. The upsides are a very firm (if desired) crimp and the need not to buy a separated die.

Taper crimping is most commonly used on auto pistol cases that need to index on the case mouths but still must be crimped to prevent telescoping during the feeding cycle. A roll would prevent that indexing and rely on the pistol's extractor to keep the case from moving too far in and beyond the firing pin strike. They are also made for just about every cartridge, and many prefer them over the roll crimp because they are less likely to collapse a case neck and shoulder if set too deep. Like the roll, they require the cases all be the same length for the same reason. They will not deliver as firm a crimp as a roll, so of your two options, I would stick with the roll crimp.

BUT.....

Your third option appeared on the loading scene more recently than the other two. More properly called a collet crimp, but in practice usually referred to as a "Factory" crimp as that is Lee's trade name for them. (Because there are three different styles of Lee Factory Crimp dies, I prefer to describe them by how they work. I find it less confusing.) With revolver and bottleneck rifle FC dies when the case is pushed into the die, a collet closes around the neck and crimps the case radially. Case length is not as critical as long as the case mouths are within the crimping band of the collet. Collet dies do not require that the bullet have a cannelure, making them much more versatile, especially on rifle cases. Revolver FC dies also have a carbide ring at their bases that slightly resizes the case body with seated bullet to prevent bulged cases that won't load into the cylinder. The sizing ring makes them ideal for jacketed handgun loads, but they can be problematic when cast bullets of larger diameter are used. (Pistol FC dies are taper crimp dies with the carbide ring, and they also suck for the larger diameter cast bullets.) The rifle FC dies have collets but do not have the carbide ring and are just fine with cast bullets. Personally, I use them whenever I am loading jacketed pistol or revolver bullets, and on any rifle rounds requiring a crimp. I hate roll crimps with a passion and normally use them only on cast revolver rounds. I much prefer to crimp as a separate operation from bullet seating as I get better results. I would recommend you try one for all jacketed handgun rounds, and for all your rifle rounds (all cast and some jacketed, depending on type of action) that require a crimp, or that benefit accuracy-wise from being crimped. I think it is one of John Lee's two best inventions (the other is the collet neck sizer for rifle cases). I think of the years before they came out as the Dark Ages.

[Kirbydoc]

Oldmarine, keep.......records! If you think something is worthwhile and the author doesn't mind put it in your private notebook. My advice is there for everyone so copy and paste. Things on the internet are NOT permanent! Many of us were regulars on another board that was hacked and we lost a tremendous amount of information, pictures and resources when the board went down! I and I'm sure many others wish we had kept a bunch of that.
Versifier is a writer so ask his permission first. He's a generous guy but makes a living that way.

[versifier]

Any member here is free to copy anything I post here for your personal use. If you wish to use it elsewhere, ask so I can give you my real name to put on it. If I post it here, technically I still own it, unlike at another site/forum that shall remain nameless where the owners of the site own all posted content. The rights to anything HERE remain with the person who posted them. That said, I don't post anything here that I don't mind sharing or that would devastate me if it appeared elsewhere, I would just appreciate the credit for having written it.

KD, thank you for mentioning it though. I don't do it for a living. ROFL (I do miss that smilie from the old board). I am disabled and I write to retain what little sanity remains to me. Sometimes it's a losing battle. 99% of what I actually sell (on rare occasions when I sell something) is poetry, lyrics, and fiction. The gun rag market is pretty much impossible to get into without an agent and some serious connections in the publishing industry, which I do not have. About all the gun rags print of mine is letters to various editors. Answering questions here keeps me in practice, with the added bonus of doing the needed research when someone asks me a question I don't know the answer to. Then I'm not happy until I have learned and understand it well enough to be able to explain it. One of these years there will be a book of mine about loading/casting/smithing containing many of the questions and answers from the last ten+ years of forum hopping, but there are some major projects in line ahead of it, so don't hold your breath.

[Kirbydoc]

Vers, don't know about you but I got really sad thinking about the treaure trove of pictures, posts and information that went the way of the Dodo when the old board crashed.
Keep records and again I say KEEP RECORDS!

[noylj]

isn't this covered in reloading manuals? Of course, most manuals seem more interested in selling useless gadgets than really explaining how to reload. Thus, if this is the problem, get "ABCs of Reloading" (an old version from Amazon) or "Handloading for Handguners" (again, go to Amazon).
If the case headspaces on the case mouth (i.e., there is no rim or belt or shoulder or clip to hold the rounds), then you taper crimp. This includes almost all semi-auto handgun rounds such as 9x19, .40 S&W, and .45 Auto. If you roll crimp one of these rounds, the case could be forced into the chamber throat and when the round goes bang, the whole gun could go KaBoom since there is no room for the case mouth to expand and release the bullet. If there is a rim or belt, then you can roll crimp.

[Kirbydoc]

noylj well, not really. I have a friend who measured over a hundred .45 acp cases and none of them was as long as the chamber in his pistol. The case mouth never touches anything and the extractor holds the case in place. He roll-crimped many thousands of .45's before he read that...and laughed.
Don't believe everything you read.

[versifier]

It's still better IMO to taper crimp auto pistol cartridges.

I suspect it was discovered in the early days of straightwall auto cartridges that if you made the chamber a tad longer and used a slightly heavier extractor, function problems were noticeably reduced. But there are still some pretty tight chambers occasionally encountered today in modern target pistols and in older milsurps and prewar commercial pistols.

Not all chamber reamers are created equal, and their dimensions change with each sharpening, the chambers they cut slightly smaller. When is an expensive reamer finally too small and needing replacement? This is especially true of older early semi-autos, including those produced during WWII by slave labor. Today we have standard accepted chamber dimensions and acceptable variation. Then, a different tool maker at every factory made his best guess when he ground a new run of reamers. I have actually had to initially TRIM cases for one ancient 9mm and a pair of .32ACP's. Those pistols headspace ON THE RIM. Technically all three have insufficient headspace and with a GO Gage chambered would not go into battery. The 9mm, a Luger, must have been a jam-o-matic with mil ammo, but it functions well now with taper crimped handloads. A roll crimped round went go too far in and the firing pin didn't hit it, there is enough play in the extractor, but that was the clue that helped me to solve the puzzle as it caused me to stop guessing and measure the actual chamber dimensions. It is a rare box of factory ammo that will function properly in it, if at all, glad I don't own it. He has a thousand cases of the correct length that he loads cast bullets in for it and he is happy because he loves to shoot it and nothing sucks more than an expensive antique pistol that won't work. I shudder to think of a soldier carrying it in battle, even a German soldier (probably why it's in such good shape - it had obviously never worked right). The .32's, a Walther and a Browning, had the same issue, but them I cured with a reamer. But if I hadn't had to take the time to figure out the Luger's problem and a way to load for it without taking a chambering reamer to it I'd never have figured them out. These are extremes and I use them only to illustrate the worst case and to remind that whenever you come upon an older gun, you'd better check it over pretty thoroughly. There are reasons for some of our handloading "rules".

It really isn't an issue with most modern pistols how you crimp, as long as you do it correctly, but I still prefer to do my crimping for them in a separate step, which usually means a taper crimp, and I continue to hate roll crimps for anything but revolver rounds. In a modern pistol with a good extractor and plenty of elbow room in the chamber it really shouldn't make a difference if you roll crimp them.....usually. And it does save a step in the production, a real advantage in a progressive with a limited number of die stations. But I run turret, not a progressive, have room on it for all the dies I could ever need, and (NOT to cast aspersions on your friend in any way KD - if it works, don't fix it) I hate roll crimps anyway. I may have mentioned that.

[noylj]

I have not read a single reliable source that has EVER recommended a roll crimp for .45 Auto. All the manufacturer's make clear that their .45 roll crimp dies are for .45AR or .45Autos used in a revolver with a clip to establish headspace. You can get along for some time doing some things wrong, but that doesn't mean a problem is NOT going to come up.
Yes, ALL straightwall cases I have are too short. In most cases, I load long so the bullet/rifling establishes head space.
All I said was IF the round is roll crimped and IF the case enters the throat, pressures can become high enough to cause a KB. Since I like my guns, hands, and face, I will continue to taper crimp. If you have total faith that the extractor will keep every single round from having the case mouth enter the throat, you are on your own.

[Kirbydoc]

:coffee: My point was not that a roll-crimp was better but that the case seldom headspaces on the rim. I agree any auto will probably work better with a taper crimp or "factory crimp" but recognize the case mouth just doesn't often touch in the chamber. What Versifier said about crafting and sharpening chamber reamers is probably the key here.
I find that I just don't bother to trim my .45 acp cases now but if I had a different pistol things might well be different.

[Hellrazor]

We use all of the shady sources we find on the internet.. :mrgreen:

[Kirbydoc]

KD, thank you for mentioning it though. I don't do it for a living. ROFL (I do miss that smilie from the old board). Versifier here is an lol I like: [smilie=l: