View Full Version : What is a 30/223 Ingram?

11-25-2007, 01:51 AM
Hello: This is my first posting to this group. I just purchased a Thompson Center Contender today at a local gun show. It came with a number of exotic barrels. I'm looking for any information on a 30/223 Ingram. None of my reloading books refernce this round nor do they mention the 25-35 round either. I'm anxious to reload and fire this baby but need some assistance.

I'm wondering if the 30/223 Ingram round is a 223 with a .30 bullet but this would only be a guess.

Can someone tell me if I can fire a standard 223 in this barrel as well. Many thnaks for the advice. Cheers T.I. in Colorado

11-25-2007, 04:01 AM
Welcome to the forum tweintraub. [smilie=s:
The .30/.223 Ingram is one of the wildcats based on the .223 Rem case. The .30/.223 is the basic case necked up to hold a .30 bullet, and the Ingram has a blown out shoulder like a K Hornet, giving a little extra powder capacity. The cartridge is basically in the same class as the .30-30, a little hotter than the 7.62x39 military round. Think of it as a .300Whisper with a longer case. NO, you CANNOT fire a .223 in it. It would not necessarily hurt the barrel, but it would destroy the case and send the bullet out tumbling at a fraction of it's normal velocity. Think of what would happen if you fired a .243 in a .308, it's the same sort of thing. It is a handloading only proposition like any other wildcat, and as there is little loading data available, it needs a very experienced handloader to do it safely. I have been collecting data for it for several years. If you might be interested in selling the barrel, please let me know as I am seriously interested and would consider buying or trading for it. [smilie=w: I have a good sized collection of Contender pistol and carbine barrels. I have the custom loading dies and am in the process of getting an action to build a .30/.223 bolt action for hunting. I have been seriously considering having a custom barrel made in that chambering for my Contender, too. How long is the barrel? Who made it?

25-35 Winchester is an obsolescent but still great performing round, originally loaded with black powder and introduced in 1895 for the model 94 lever action. In a modern barrel with modern components it is a decent varmint round that can (with the right bullets) do double duty as a decent deer round at reasonable ranges. It is balistically inferior to the .250Savage, but far superior to the 25-20. It's a low recoiling and fun cartridge to target shoot and hunt with. How long is this barrel?

I can get you data for both barrels.

11-25-2007, 01:46 PM
Thanks for the reply. I certainly could use load data for both rounds. The 25-35 is an original contender barrel made by Thompson Center. It is a 12" barrel I believe. The 30/223 is a 14" barrel and is not marked by Thompson Center. It doesn't have any manufacture markings on it unless its under the scope mount which I haven't explored yet.

I have found a source for the 25-35 cases but need to find out if I can purchase the 30/223 cases or modify what I have. I don't have any drawings, measurements, etc to show me what that case looks like. I have seen the RCBS Dies for this round on Ebay. I have the 25-35 dies from Lee. If you have any info on loading data and/or diagrams of the cases, that would be greatly appreciated. Cheers T.I.

11-25-2007, 03:56 PM
These .25-35 loads from COTW:
60SP IMR 4064 30.5gr 2800fps
60SP IMR 4320 32.0gr 2900fps
117SP IMR 3031 25.5gr 3200fps
117SP IMR 4320 27.0 2200fps
117SP Win Factory Load 2230fps
Case length 2.043"

These loads were for lever action rifles, not considered to be effective for deer-sized game, but in a Contender, pressures could be raised to .30-30 levels for a significant increase in performance. There is a lot more data in the Lee manual.

What loading manuals do you have now?

You can't buy .30/.223 cases. You have to make them yourself from the parent .223 cases. You must start with brand new unfired or at least properly anealed once-fired cases. If you overdo the anealing, the cases will self-destruct on firing: neck and/or shoulder splits. If you don't do it enough, you will lose a significant number of them expanding the necks. First the necks must be expanded, then the cases must be fireformed to the chamber. This is not a project for a beginner. The loading data I have is for the basic .30/.223, not the Ingram, and is in spreadsheet format. That means you will be working in the dark as to the working limits of the round. You must have a chronograph, and you must have a micrometer, as well as knowing how to recognize all the indicators of high pressure, and not just the visual ones. That's not something you can learn in a few postings. Buy a copy of The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions, that's a good place to start.

11-25-2007, 04:20 PM
Thanks for the great info on the loads. I am using the Speer #13 & #14 manuals as reference. I have gone over to a friends house who is a longtime loader. None of his manuals had any reference to these loads.

I want to better understand the process to build these 30/223 cartridges. Do you have any diagrams of the cases so I can see the actual dimensions and what the neck is supposed to look like?

Thanks T.I.

11-25-2007, 09:39 PM
I don't have the specs for the Ingram case. I have read that it has a modified shoulder angle, like the Ackley wildcats. There are a whole bunch of .30 cal wildcats based on the whole family of cases, .221 (.30Whisper), .222, .223, .222mag, each with minor differences in length and shoulder angle. Everybody and his uncle seems to have been coming up with a different variation during the 60's and 70's. Perhaps you could find the info you are looking for on the RCBS website or call them direct and have them send it to you. They publish the specs for all of their wildcat and regular dies.

A cerosafe chamber cast will also give you information on your specific chamber. Are you sure it doesnt have any other info stamped on it? Like OTT or Bulberry?

The shoulder is formed by fire-forming, like many wildcats. You can order the book from Midway, it has a lot of material in it that you will need. It wouldn't hurt to order another loading manual while you're at it, too. It helps to have two or more to compare and to evaluate data from unknown or questionable sources.

11-27-2007, 02:43 AM
testhop, I think you posted this on the wrong thread. You can edit it using the icons at the bottom of your post.