Are premium bullets really necessary?

[Paul B]

The title pretty much says it all. My thoughts run to the fact that any cartridge with a muzzle velocity of 2800 FPS or less really does not need a premium bullet. Frankly, I've only used them twice on game. One time was almsot a disaster and the second was spectacular.

The disaster came from a 30-06 loaded with the 180 gr. Nosler Partition. The animal was the biggest bodied Mule Deer I have ever killed. This animal weighed 296 pounds in the dressed quarters on a certified butcher's scale.

The first bullet clipped the top of the heart cutting a deep groove in the muscle but not making a hole to let blood out. Shot number two was right through the lungs. Shot nubers three and four were misses although one did cut off an antler. I forced myself to settle down and broke his neck with the last shot. The shot through the lungs looked like I'd poked the hole in them with a pencil; just a small hole with no other damage. Years later when I go a chronograph, I found the load was doing 2710 FPS. Shots at this deer ranger from maybe 40 feet to 35 yards. When I shot he ran to the right. When I shot again he ran back to the left. Every time I shot he would reverse direction just like those targets in a shooting gallery. The whole thing was like some kind of dream that at least ended well.

My normal deer load in the 30-06 is the Sierra 180 gr. Pro-Hunter but I only had that one day to hunt and hadn't made up any of my regular loads. Working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week because we were short handed does put a crimp in one's plans to reload and hunt.

The successful shot with a Premium bullet came from my .35 Whelen on my cow elk hunt last year. The shot was about 150 yards out with the elk running away slighly quartering to the left.
The load was the 225 gr. Barnes TSX over a stiff charge of Re-15 with a velocity of 2700 FPS. The bullet hit the elk just behind the short ribs and exited between the neck and the right shoulder. At impact, that elk hit the ground so hard that she bounced. I shot my first deer way back in 1949 and I've hunted something in the deer/elk class every years except during the time I was in the military and even then got a couple of hunts in. In all those years, I cannot remember ever seeing an animal go down so fast or so hard.

I have to wonder? Was that 180 gr. Partition just way too tough for use in the 30-06 or was it a case of bullet failure. In fact, it was a premium bullet that cost me a deer a few years back. It was a hunt in the KaIbab National Forest and the state of Arizona asked that hunters there use one of the monometal bullets. It wa sgetting close to the rut and the bucks and does were starting to stick together. I finally found a decent buck that would look great on the wall and because my Whelen was stoked with those Barnes bullets I did not dare shoot. Oh I'd have gotten that buck all right but that bullet would have passed clean through him and taken out a couple of does as well. Game Wardens frown of such antics. To be honest though, even a cup and core would have passed through and taken some does so maybe I'm being unfair.

Anyway, the question still stands. Are premium bullets really all that necessary if muzzle velocity is 2800 FPS or less? What say you.
Paul B.

[versifier]

That's a hard question to answer.

The only premium bullets I load are NPAR's. 100gr .243's, 100gr .25's, 140gr 6.5's, 180gr .30's. All have done the job when shot at deer by me and other friends (except the 180gr .30's which I got for moose hunting, but no one I know has drawn a moose tag since I worked up loads for them).

Generally I prefer to load either Sierra GK's or PH's which are always much more accurate and which have never failed to do their jobs either as long as the shots were correctly placed. Gutshot is still gutshot regardless of the bullet construction or its weight and caliber. I have yet to see a properly placed bullet fail, premium or not, but hunting here in the heavy brush where the ranges are short doesn't really push the envelope of bullet design parameters unless you try to shoot through a tree. :razz:

I don't shoot magnum rifles, so most of my loads are at or below 2800fps anyway and I have no experience as to how they would perform above 3000fps. I must say though that while probably not really necessary, they may inspire a bit more shooter confidence, especially after reading cup&core bullet horror stories. Either way, deer in the freezer are still dead and don't seem inclined to argue no matter what was used on them.

[kodiak1]

The biggest thing is put the bullet where it should be put and they will do their job.
I shoot a lot of speer, Hornady and Sierra's they work well if I do my job. As stated above a gut shot is a gut shot.
A new bullet that is coming out the first year or two I have a tendency to stay away from thill they get their quirks worked out. They may not expand like they would like them to or open up to easily. All that is suppose to get worked out in the lab but shooting ballistic jell is not shooting an animal.

You stayed with it and got your animals and that is the second most important thing. Nothing is worse than finding game that was crippled and left.

Ken.

[Clinebo]

I had a similar failure with a 140 gr Bronze Point in my .270. Shot a Whitetail buck at about 50 yds. It stood there and looked at me. Shot again and the same result. At this point I was wondering if my scope had gotten knocked out of whack. It walked away and I followed and found blood and hair where it had been standing. I HAD hit it. 150 yds away I found him. The holes were a half inch apart, one above the other. Punched right through between the ribs and never hit any bone. He bled out internally. At that range a good round nose soft point might have been a better choice. I had been looking at longer shots so had the Bronze Points in the magazine.

[303tom]

For nail driving accuracy, in a word YES ! Other wise NO......

[Paul B]

For nail driving accuracy, in a word YES ! Other wise NO......

I find your post a bit confusing. I don't consider most Sierra bullets premium including their very accurate match grade bullets yet even their common cup and core Pro-Hunters and Game-Kings have all been "nail driving" accurate in my rifles.

By premium bullets, I meant bullets like the Nosler Partition, Barnes TSX and their ilk. Nosler Partitions have always shot decently for me but their equal in weight Sierra has always out shot them. The barnes TSX has been a mixed bag for me as the 225 gr. .35 caliber bullet shoot .50" from my .35 Whelen but the 100 gr. .25 caiber TSX will only do 1.25" from my .257 Roberts. Yet that very load is a .75" grouper in my ex-son in law's .257 Roberts. Both rifles are Winchester M70 Featherweights. Considering the reputation of the Roberts, I wonder if a bullet that toughis really necessary? After all, rounds like the "Bob", .270 Win. and 30-06 were killing deer and bigger game long before those pricey bullets came upon the scene.
Paul B.

[303tom]

Well I am sorry if you don`t get it & I am not trying to be sarcastic. Your mistake was using the 180 gr. Nosler Partition, & like you said I don't consider (SOME) Sierra bullets premium but if I am not shooting out past say 3 or 350 yds. I am not going to use a pointed bullet. On that Muley I would have used a 180gr. RN & poked a big hole in him, 180gr. RN & .30-06 that is a lethal combination out to 300 yds.

[kodiak1]

Paul B
I have seen rifles where the bullet that should work great (one would think) just plain old dosen't.
I think you have to find the right bullet for that particular firearm and it may not be a premium bullet.
Most people look at cast bullets as ho hum but if you really take the time and work with a rifle you will get that bad boy to shoot deadly accurate!

Another thing that makes reloading a mind boggler at times!

Ken.

[Paul B]

Well I am sorry if you don`t get it & I am not trying to be sarcastic. Your mistake was using the 180 gr. Nosler Partition, & like you said I don't consider (SOME) Sierra bullets premium but if I am not shooting out past say 3 or 350 yds. I am not going to use a pointed bullet. On that Muley I would have used a 180gr. RN & poked a big hole in him, 180gr. RN & .30-06 that is a lethal combination out to 300 yds.

Methinks you either missed or forgot this portion of my original post.

"My normal deer load in the 30-06 is the Sierra 180 gr. Pro-Hunter but I only had that one day to hunt and hadn't made up any of my regular loads. Working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week because we were short handed does put a crimp in one's plans to reload and hunt."

Again, my normal deer load in the 30-06 is the 180 gr. Sierra Pro-Hunter and depending on where I'm hunting I do sometimes use a 180 gr. Sierra round nose. However, under normal circumstances, my Sierra and Nosler partition loads were worked up tp be compatible in one particular rifle I can count on either to hit within two inches of each other at 200 plus yards. The Sierra bullet was my deer load and the Nosler specifically was loaded for elk.

For that particular hunt due to over a month of very nasty working hours, I could not make up a box of my normal deer load and had to use the elk load that I'd planned using for the elk hunt that work prevented.

I have come to the conclusion that if the muzzle velocity of any cartridge I'm shooting is 2800 FPS or less, I will not be using a premium bullet unless force to by law. As I don't even plan to hunt in California's condor fly zone mono-metal bullet probably won;t see much use. The only reason my .35 Whelen was loaded with them is I used the rifle on a Northern Arizona deer hunt and the state requested we voluntarily use bullets typified by the Barnes TSX and the like. In fact, that bullet cost me the only decent buck I saw on that trip and I'm sure he could have made the book. But, if I'd shot him I would have also taken out a couple of does that were standing behind him. I'm afraid the state or Arizona frowns very severely on such shenanigans. Even my ex-son in law couldn't take a shot with his .257 Robt. because the 100 gr. TSX would have passed clean through and taken out at least one doe. To be honest, I think even a conventional bullet would have done the same considering the deer was only about 50 yards out.
Paul B.

[303tom]

Sorry Paul, I said I was not trying to be sarcastic.........

[Paul B]

Sorry Paul, I said I was not trying to be sarcastic.........

I knew that. I just wanted to clarify what my circumstances were on that particular hunt. It was a somewhat strange hunt anyway. The deer was headed east when I shot him. He turns around and heads west and I shot again. He then turned back east and I shot once more and he then goes back to the west. It was almost like a wierd dream, like a live deer in a shooting gallery that wouldn't fall down. Well the last shot that broke his neck finally finished what was turning out to be a nightmare. I was beginning to think I was gonna lose that deer. Funny thing, as big and as old as that der was, he was so tender you could cut him with a fork. The rut was just getting started and his neck didn't swell up or no other signs that he was getting ready to breed. His teeth were woe down to the gums and I'm thinking that he would probably not have survived the coming winter. I probably did him a favor.
Paul B.

[303tom]

Yep some strange thing can happen on a hunt HUH..........

[Paul B]

Yep some strange thing can happen on a hunt HUH..........

Ain't that the truth.
Paul B.

[mjones1579]

For hunting, I've killed all manner of deer, elk, coyotes, prairie dogs and jacks with the cheapest bulk packed Remington, Winchester and blemished bullets I could find for reloading. The animals didn't seem to care......they just died.

Even for target shooting, if you sort according to weight, they do pretty well too. Used to bang a 12 inch gong at 800 yards real often with an old Springfield 06 with these bullets using a Redfield reciever sight.

[Paul B]

For hunting, I've killed all manner of deer, elk, coyotes, prairie dogs and jacks with the cheapest bulk packed Remington, Winchester and blemished bullets I could find for reloading. The animals didn't seem to care......they just died.

Even for target shooting, if you sort according to weight, they do pretty well too. Used to bang a 12 inch gong at 800 yards real often with an old Springfield 06 with these bullets using a Redfield reciever sight.

Well, for the most part so have I. I've already stated what my results were so I won't bother going over that again. I am of the opinion that if your muzzle velocity is 2800 FPS or less, there really is no need for an expensive premium bullet. I do think that if the animal is a large one, say elk on up or a Black Bear, maybe one of the tougher bullets just might be more appropriate.
I'll be playing with some of the 120 and 140 gr. Barnes TSX in my 7x57 Mauser and .280 Rem. customs in the not too distant future. especially the 7x57. I'll probably use that if I'm lucky enough to draw tags for antelope, deer and elk this year. I might use the .280 for antelope but it's way too heavy for any serious high country deer or elk. It's a true plaind rifle.
Paul B.

[j1]

Soitanly as the three stooges used to say.

Good question. My mind keeps changing with my mood. Mostly not but sometimes yes. 257 Weatherby yes. 30 06. No, and I do not even
have a 257 Weatherby. Never used premium bullets in my 300 Weatherby though.

[DrHenley]

I've shot deer with every kind of copper jacketed bullet you can think of. Besides a slew of traditional Cup and cores, I've also used Boat Tail Hollow Points, Bronze Points, Silvertips, Ballistic Tips, Ballistic Silvertips, Partitions, SSTs, Accubonds, etc. The Partitions had a tendency to blow off the front part quickly and then plow all the rest of the way through with a small wound channel. I wasn't impressed.

The Accubonds, on the other hand, made a huge impression. They really do make a huge difference. And they are accurate, too.

[BBerguson]

I agree with you Doc. I started loading Hornady Interbonds in my 300 wsm and never thought I needed anything else. I knew the bullet would hold together no matter what part of the deer I hit or what angle I was shooting into. It gave me a level of confidence when hunting and they are very accurate. I also got some 90 gr scirocco for my sons 243 because most 24 cal bullets tend to be light jacketed varmint bullets. Those sciroccos are tough and would allow a less experienced hunter to hit a shoulder and still anchor a deer.

BB

[DrHenley]

Siroccos performed well in 264 RLB #4. But I only managed to find one box, then after that I could not find any for a long time, and then they were sky high.

I got started with the Accubonds with some factory seconds that really blew me away with their performance. After that, I watched Nosler's factory seconds site for specials and stocked up in several calibers (.257, 6.5mm, .277, 7mm, .308 )

[30-40 Kraig]

I have tried to use the Nosler partition bullets and I just could not get the accuracy out of it and went back to a Sierra Gameking.

[DrHenley]

I used GameKings in the same 30-06 load for decades. I was using Hodgdon H450 powder and when Hodgdon quit selling it I never found a powder that shot as well with the GameKings.

I ended up having to push them hard to get any accuracy, and then on a close range front quartering shot, one blew up in the shoulder and failed to penetrate to the vitals. When you shoot a deer in the shoulder from 25 yards with a 30-06, you don't expect it to just run off! That shook my confidence in them and I started hunting with a 25-06 and a 45-70 for several years until I could find a good load again for the 30-06. Accubonds were the ticket.

[RiverRider]

I remember your dismay over the demise of H450. My gosh. That was what, thirteen years ago? Some of our RLB ties go back a ways!!!

[DrHenley]

My last batch with H450 was in 1990. After shooting up those, I sold my 30-06 and wandered around lost in the wilderness for a decade, trying out different guns using factory loads in 30-30, 270, 250 Savage, 7mm-08, and 308.

Then I bought the 30-06 HighWall in 2003. That's when I started back reloading in earnest and joined the RLB. I used the GameKings initially and just tried to duplicate the H450 load, which proved elusive. With the powders I tried (you probably remember me trying Reloder 22), the HighWall seemed to shoot best in the Red Zone, and the H450 load had been pretty mild.

[RiverRider]

Aahhh. Yes, now I remember, and I opined that Re22 is too slow for the .30-06. I definitely recall you mentioning H450 though. I thought it was available into the middle or late 90s???

[RiverRider]

Now I am realizing just how poor my memory is. Ha!

Did we, at that time, talk about the possibility that the Hi Wall just wasn't going to behave as your original rifle did? Do you still have that rifle?

[DrHenley]

Still have the Highwall. It has taken a back seat to 264 RLB #7 in recent years. I lost the ability to practice at ranges past 300 a number of years ago, so I haven't tried to shoot any deer past 300 in a while. The 264 RLB is good out to 300. And I have a 45-70 for the woods. If I get back into longer range shooting, I'll use the 30-06.

[j1]

I can be sarcastic but it is often too much work. No I do not think that they are often required and have never yet used any. For your money you get to choose though. If I had a 257 Weatherby I might use them.

[versifier]

Maybe the operative question should be: Do I need performance from the bullet that the standard cup&core cannot give me?

For very large game and at longer ranges premium hunting bullets can make good sense. These days there are lots of choices, too, if your rifle doesn't shoot the old standby NPAR's very well, chances are pretty good it will like one of the others.

At the ranges we hunt here though, I'd shoot cast bullets even for moose. I don't need a premium bullet to shoot one within 50yds or even within 150. No one does. I just need to hit the moose lottery.

But if the ranges were really long I could easily justify the extra cost of testing premium and hunting with bullets. I would find something cheaper to practice with. Cup&cores aren't at their best launched at higher velocities (3500+MV) and they aren't really good at holding together when they hit large bones, either. With the largest game you need good penetration and weight retention and enough expansion to transfer as much of the bullet's energy to the game animal without fragmenting. Premium bullets are designed to do that much better than cup&cores.

[RiverRider]

I see an awful lot of stuff about long range hunting. It seems to me the participants waaaaay over-value BCs and ignore old school terminal performance. Theyre shooting VLDs and A-Maxes at big game and I think that it is foolish regardless of their claims that everything they shoot is DRT. Quite frankly I just dont believe them. I have to say it bugs the crap out of me and I find myself despising Remington 700s with tactical a styled stocks and big uglyass bolt knobs. A good bullet like a Partition may cost twice what an ordinary cup-n-core costs, but bullets are such a small part of the expense of hunting I don't see economizing as such a good idea. I don't like Chinese made wrenches in my toolbox either.

[DrHenley]

I don't need a premium bullet to shoot one within 50yds or even within 150. No one does.

I do...at 25...

When you shoot a deer at 25 yards in the shoulder with a 30-06, the last thing you expect is for him to just run off on three legs, like nothing happened. I was so flabbergasted, I missed a chance at a follow up shot because I didn't reload - I was expecting him to keel over any second, but he just kept going.

That's when I stopped using cup and cores and switched to Accubonds.

[j1]

Are Sierra bullets premium? Not knocking them, they are one of my favorites. Only super fast cartridges need premium bullets. The 257 Weatherby magnum for example. I once had a strange performance when I shot adoe with my 300 Weatherby magnum at about 50 yards. There was a hole where the bullet enteredbut no exit hole.

[Hellrazor]

j1, depends what you are buying and who defined premium. Most places define premium as bonded bullets.

[30-40 Kraig]

I guess you could almost say the premium bullets are designated by price. I once shot a mule deer at 30 yards with a 25-06 using a 85 gr nosler BT running about 3400 fps. Yep, probably no the first choice but it was what shot good and I had confidence in it. The buck was facing me. I put it right through the brisket and he dropped like a sack of potatoes. When dressing it out I found the entire chest cavity was like jello. We found fragments clear back into the hind quarters. That rifle has taken plenty of deer using 117 gr Speers.

[Hellrazor]

I don't care for BT in my 25-06 because of how explosive it is. Did almost the exact same thing to a buck about 10 years ago. But my shot was hit behind the shoulder towards the brisket. Chest was all jello and it shredded the heart and lungs. My worry is doing that on a poor angle and ruining a bunch of meat.

[BBerguson]

I'm not sure why someone would spend 400-1000 or more for a big game rifle, 200-1000 or more for optics and then use bullets that will fall apart if you hit too much/too big bone. Sure, make the perfect shot and everything works out fine, make a less than perfect shot and you could leave a wounded animal. If I'm not mistaken, if you wound an elk in the Penn season, you just filled your tag. Would you really want to take a chance on your bullet performance? Last I checked, they are about double the cost of regular bullets. So let's say YOUR bullet costs 30 cents each and the premium costs 60 cents each. Hell, you do the math, tell me if it's worth it... It's not to me.

BB

[Hellrazor]

Elk hunting rules in pa are goofy. I can't use my 264 win mag. 270+ only.

[versifier]

Hunting anything bigger than deer beyond 100yds (or anything that can eat you) it makes good sense, I agree the extra expense is negligible. Or any rifle that pushes a cup&core so fast it comes apart or explodes on close shots. For target shooting or hunting deer at ranges you could hit them with a thrown baseball, why bother?

[BBerguson]

You're exactly right about deer at close range, at least just any old deer. If I were to see a slammer, I want the best bullet possible so I don't have to worry as much. Heck this from a guy that hunted deer most of his life with a 22-250... :-)

BB

[j1]

BB shoot a lot shoot well and the cartridge hardly matters. Poachers with 22 shorts at night shoot right in the eye and somehow the deer dies.

[j1]

Lots of thinking and to be honest it is still a tough question. 257 Weatherby magnum, maybe yes. 30 06 not so far.

[30-40 Kraig]

Since I have been looking at 223 bullets I noticed that there are 223 Partitions. 60 grainers. I guess those would be for deer. Where it is legal anyway to use the 223 for deer. In Kansas it is only legal to use 24 cal or higher.

[elkhunter77]

They work good on Hogs also.

[j1]

Paul B you are a good man. You asked a really interesting question. Thank you. Not for the answer. I STILL do not know the answer, but for the question. Gotta think more and you helped.

The 223 kills deer very well. Do I carry one deer hunting? No. Yet it works just fine. So does the Hornet a little closer. Heck so would a 22 long rifle I am sure. My deer gun was my 06 for years. My Contender in 30 30 has joined it.

YES I have decided they ARE necesary. Just not for me so far. With Pickles 257 Weatherby mag I would use them for deer.

[j1]

Not necesary. Can we change the question from necesary to desirable? Different question really.