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armyrat1970
02-03-2009, 10:05 AM
Anyone every compare pulled Turk or Ecuadorian to commercial powders?

versifier
02-03-2009, 04:44 PM
The surp powders I buy are American as far as I know. At least they are either pulled from US ammo or sold as surplus versions of similar US commercial (cannister) powders.

wiljen
02-06-2009, 08:02 PM
I don't think you can generalize to a country. I think you would have to reference an individual production lot of ammunition as the powders vary from one lot to the next.

armyrat1970
02-07-2009, 10:51 AM
I don't think you can generalize to a country. I think you would have to reference an individual production lot of ammunition as the powders vary from one lot to the next.

The Turk and Ecuadorian I am referring to is a flake type powder. As it is pulled MilSurp I don't see how I can reference it to any given lot. The cartridges do have a year stamp but may have been loaded at any time during that given year with different lots. Have tried different loads with each using the pulled powder, bullets, case and primers. Each has a different bullet weight as the Turk goes around 154grs and the Ecudorian around 198grs. When comparing they seem to be close to some commercial brands like IMR4895 and was wondering if I could safely use the start charge for cast bullets for the 8x57.

versifier
02-07-2009, 07:28 PM
Usually the powder source will have some info available, but you are working in the dark here. I would not even think about using the powder without a chronograph, but with one, this is how I would go about it:

Chrono the loads as they came to you, if possible do it in the new cases you will be using and with with your regular primers. (I am thinking here about pulling components from Berdan cases that you will be unable to reuse.)
Baseline Data:
X grains of Y powder gives Z velocity with original bullet.
How does it compare with the velocities of the MAX loads on the chart? Any pressure signs on the primers of fired cases? Figure out how hot you think the load is compared to other powders.
Reduce the charge by 10% and make note of the velocity reduction.
(X - 10%) = (Z - ?)
Reduce it by 10% again and note velocity. (Make sure the bullet exits the barrel when you are reducing in case the powder has a very narrow usable weight range.)
(X - 20%) = (Z - ?)
The idea here is to play with the charge level until you come to the approximate velocity of the other starting loads on the table.
(X - ?) = Jacketed Starting Load
This will give you enough info make an educated guess on the relative volume as it relates to velocity on the charge table. Using this data you can then safely calculate reduced charges for cast bullets. If you find the powder has similar characteristics to a known commercial powder, you are golden - this is how the surp dealers figure out their loading info, but if it doesn't, cast pressures are always lower and with the chrono you can work safely to develop loads. The real danger is trying to increase loads with an unknown powder, especially with jacketed bullets, as you have no way except velocity, primer appearance, and case head measurements (neither of which are 100% reliable) to warn you when you are getting into the RED ZONE. As you can see on the chart, some powders MAX at much lower velocities, others don't, and you have no way of knowing for sure what yours will do.

This is the formula I use to figure out my cast starting loads and how I find it. I have never used it with BALL POWDERS because I have read they can pressure spike with reduced loads, but it has worked great with flake and extruded powders, cannister and surp for many years of shooting and testing.
For approximately equal weight jacketed vs. cast bullets:
Max(jacketed) - Start(jacketed) = Difference
Start(jacketed) - Difference = Start(cast)
I usually work up in 1gr increments from the calculated starting load and won't go much above the jacketed starting load with a cast bullet - the most accurate load is usually well below that point and it begins to push the limits of bullet strength. Exceeding the cast alloy's strength will leave enough lead in your barrel that will take you quite a while to remove with solvents and brushes. 1500-1800fps is about as fast as you can realistically expect to go.

armyrat1970
02-14-2009, 01:09 PM
Usually the powder source will have some info available, but you are working in the dark here. I would not even think about using the powder without a chronograph, but with one, this is how I would go about it:

Chrono the loads as they came to you, if possible do it in the new cases you will be using and with with your regular primers. (I am thinking here about pulling components from Berdan cases that you will be unable to reuse.)
Baseline Data:
X grains of Y powder gives Z velocity with original bullet.
How does it compare with the velocities of the MAX loads on the chart? Any pressure signs on the primers of fired cases? Figure out how hot you think the load is compared to other powders.
Reduce the charge by 10% and make note of the velocity reduction.
(X - 10%) = (Z - ?)
Reduce it by 10% again and note velocity. (Make sure the bullet exits the barrel when you are reducing in case the powder has a very narrow usable weight range.)
(X - 20%) = (Z - ?)
The idea here is to play with the charge level until you come to the approximate velocity of the other starting loads on the table.
(X - ?) = Jacketed Starting Load
This will give you enough info make an educated guess on the relative volume as it relates to velocity on the charge table. Using this data you can then safely calculate reduced charges for cast bullets. If you find the powder has similar characteristics to a known commercial powder, you are golden - this is how the surp dealers figure out their loading info, but if it doesn't, cast pressures are always lower and with the chrono you can work safely to develop loads. The real danger is trying to increase loads with an unknown powder, especially with jacketed bullets, as you have no way except velocity, primer appearance, and case head measurements (neither of which are 100% reliable) to warn you when you are getting into the RED ZONE. As you can see on the chart, some powders MAX at much lower velocities, others don't, and you have no way of knowing for sure what yours will do.

This is the formula I use to figure out my cast starting loads and how I find it. I have never used it with BALL POWDERS because I have read they can pressure spike with reduced loads, but it has worked great with flake and extruded powders, cannister and surp for many years of shooting and testing.
For approximately equal weight jacketed vs. cast bullets:
Max(jacketed) - Start(jacketed) = Difference
Start(jacketed) - Difference = Start(cast)
I usually work up in 1gr increments from the calculated starting load and won't go much above the jacketed starting load with a cast bullet - the most accurate load is usually well below that point and it begins to push the limits of bullet strength. Exceeding the cast alloy's strength will leave enough lead in your barrel that will take you quite a while to remove with solvents and brushes. 1500-1800fps is about as fast as you can realistically expect to go.

Have a chrony and have the data from some of the cartridges I downloaded with both the Turk and Ecuadorian several years ago. Have the data but it is really late right now and it's bed time for bonzo. I am pretty sure they are both the same powder. Will post the results tonight, more than likely early Sunday morning, and see what your opinions are.